Blood Sacrifice

last SG · 2013-01-20T16:32:12+00:00

If God exists, then God would have told us how to get right with Him. Surely this would have implications for your 8 fold path. Buddha did not claim to hear...

An Eternal Now SG

So this answer http://www.pabuddhistvihara.net/uploads/Q25transmitCanon.pdf is nonsense?

Just because it was written down in Sri Lanka at 100 BCE doesn't mean it wasn't written down before that.

An Eternal Now SG

I can also say the Pali Canon is written down in English in America in the 20th century, for example.

zeus29 SG

BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.

1. Re the cinema illustration, you missed the point. The point is that origins is not an irrelevant issue. It is also not whether you think creation matters or not, but whether creation is true. Your attitude towards this issue is irrelevant to the truth of the issue. If there is a Creator, then this fact has implications for our lives even if you personally think there is none.

What if creation is true or not? What does it change? What are the implications? We're still here. Suffering is still here. As explained by the Buddha, our suffering originates from our own attachment and aversion.

You believe in the creator, right? What are the implications? You're still here. You still suffer from ups and downs, attachment and aversion like all of us who don't believe/emphasize on the creator, don't you?

2. Re the spider bite, it proves the point that it is still important to know WHAT bit you. Even if you don't know, the doctor knows (and you are just lucky he happens to know!), and that is an important fact to know which makes a life and death difference.

Your reason of finding the spider is to tell the doctor which spider had bitten you so he could give you the right anti-venom, right? What if the doctor is skillful enough and had went through the same thing and could identify all the symptoms and could gave you medicine accordingly without even looking for the spider. Do you take it or go looking for the spider? The spider is not going to give you an antidote, the doctor will.

3. Re the metaphor, it is important to find out how you got into the forest. Who transported you there and why. Just because someone claimed to have cleared the path doesn't mean much. Imagine this person claiming to find the path out of the forest eventually is found by you dead as well. What hope is there for you?

How about what if you're kidnapped, made unconscious and later found yourself left in a forest? There's a footpath left by someone (the buddha) and lights (dharma) lighting the way. Do you walk the path or go searching for the kidnappers? As mentioned earlier, Gautama Buddha's human vessel was subjected to human conditions. Even though, his human vessel is no longer here, his dharma continue to lit the path. His teaching is very much alive and relevant even to this day. In his last moments, the buddha advised us to focus on the teaching rather than the person.

4. The Way that Jesus showed is that only through Jesus can one find salvation.

So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view

2. Right intention

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

5. Buddha's writings were indeed written many centuries after Buddha died, but Jesus' words were recorded in the Gospels within decades, by EYEWITNESSES.

Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.

_________________________________________________________________

5. This is a very good example that reflects the salvation freely offered by Christ! Jesus came to give us "food", He is the Bread of Life. But we must believe and by faith accept the gracious offer of salvation which Jesus paid for with His own life. We must "partake" of Him, as the Bible so teaches.

I was referring to buddha but if it's jesus to you, excellent!! both teach that we walk the path. As before, what good is it to look for the vegetable seller or the farmer? Knowing the farmer or seller etc won't overcome your own hunger.

I still don't understand what is the salvation you talked about? You mentioned he's the way. What way? Be like him? Dress like him? Walk his path, right? Just like the metaphor I used earlier. What's the difference? Don't tell me it's okay to walk on the path left by jesus that is lit by his teachings and not okay the path left by the buddha that is lit by his dharma.

5. During His ministry Jesus told His disciples that He would be handed over to be killed but that He would rise from the dead, just like Jonah was in the belly of the great fish for 3 days. After His resurrection He appeared to numerous people, and was taken up into heaven before EYEWITNESSES who later recorded it down.

Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?

So, Jesus appeared to everyone at one place at the same time and ascended? "in the belly of the great fish for 3 days", are you for real?? Again, we weren't there. One can only trust. That's why we call it called faith.

The resurrection is the best explanation to account for the existence of the church. All other attempts to undermine the historicity of the resurrection utterly fails.

You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.

There is no enigma at all. People who promote this kind of ideas are IMO out to make a quick buck. Sad to say they often succeed. Anyway, it is very easy to demolish this kind of ideas. One can easily quote Scripture to refute such ideas.

Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?

sinweiy SG

Which begs the question, on what basis do you assume that His followers misinterpreted His teachings? Why should we believe that you might have the correct interpretation, by which you can judge that believers have misinterpreted?

as i see the moon instead of the finger pointing. but u keep not getting the metaphor, so quite difficult. i first started with some cult and later lead to god teaching, but later find that it's not answering good enough for me until i came into Tao de jing, Confucius , Zen, etc, then later grounded on Buddhism(especially Mahayana's Pureland school. Buddhism fitted my jigsaw puzzle nicely. mystic christian was later i found it's quite close to us and i can relate quite well. i think u all rely too much on the word, the person founder, than on the meaning behind the metaphor. in Buddhism, Buddha told us

Rely on the message of the teacher, not on his personality;
Rely on the meaning, not just on the words;
Rely on the real meaning, not on the provisional one;
Rely on your wisdom mind, not on your ordinary, judgmental mind.

http://buddhism.about.com/od/becomingabuddhist/a/The-Four-Reliances.htm

zeus29 SG

The Four Reliances

http://buddhism.about.com/od/becomingabuddhist/a/The-Four-Reliances.htm

Excellent!

zeus29 SG

Another metaphor (last one ). Hopefully, this one is a better one.

Suppose you have all the symptoms of scurvy,

the doctor identified that you have scurvy,

the doctor identified the cause of your scurvy,

the doctor identified that your scurvy can be cured,

the doctor identified ways to cure your scurvy.

the doctor gave you vitamin c, does it matter whether the vitamin c is derived from oranges/ apples/ passionfruits/ grapefruits/ tomatoes/ cantaloups/ cabbages/ blueberries/ raspberries/ cranberries/ pineapples/ lemons/ kiwis/ mungbeansprouts/ broccoli/ guava/ peppers/ papayas/ guavas/ stawberries/ clementines/ grapes/ etc?

the doctor expounded various forms of vitamin c - tablets/ powdered crystalline/ effervescent/ liquid and with many flavours/non-flavor so you could take it according to your preference - orally/dilute in water/juices/IV therapy.

do you take the cure or go looking for the one who gave you scurvy/ created scurvy /created vitamin c etc?

BroInChrist SG

Another metaphor (last one ). Hopefully, this one is a better one.

Suppose you have all the symptoms of scurvy,

the doctor identified that you have scurvy,

the doctor identified the cause of your scurvy,

the doctor identified that your scurvy can be cured,

the doctor identified ways to cure your scurvy.

do you take the cure or go looking for the one who gave you scurvy/ created scurvy /created vitamin c etc?

I think you are still confused between cause and cure. Once the doctor identified the cause of your problems he could prescribe the cure. That would presuppose that the doctor had the right knowledge about such things to begin with. But if he does not, then he will want to know what is the cause by asking some diagnostic questions.

troublemaker2005 SG

depned on how serious or the type of illnesses you toking about. some very serious major and conplicated ones doctors no matter how experince good they are always and can seek a second opinion fomr his peer doctors colleagues. its a very complex human body, let alone the fact that each and everyone of our bodies behavors defeerntly and certain areas are very unique of individuals.

yes its good to alwasy seek a second opinon.

BroInChrist SG

yes its good to alwasy seek a second opinon.

Your point is noted but if I were to respond it would be to deviate far from the original point of the analogy. Point being that an effective cure would mean to know the cause or being able to identify the correct cause.

zeus29 SG

And I trust buddha to have the right knowledge just like you trust jesus. Is there a problem?

zeus29 SG

BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.

So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view

2. Right intention

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.

_________________________________________________________________

Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?

You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.

Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?

BroInChrist SG

And I trust buddha to have the right knowledge just like you trust jesus. Is there a problem?

There is, since both cannot be right at the same time in the same sense over the same issues. It is a problem of truth and logic. I do not have any problem with your choice to trust Buddha.

zeus29 SG

There is, since both cannot be right at the same time in the same sense over the same issues. It is a problem of truth and logic. I do not have any problem with your choice to trust Buddha.

so, what's the problem or truth and logic?

Also,

BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.

So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view

2. Right intention

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.

_________________________________________________________________

Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?

You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.

Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?

BroInChrist SG

so, what's the problem or truth and logic?

Also,

BroInChrist - With all due respect, I think you digressed. Here's our earlier conversation.

So, he showed the way, too. right? However, his approach is different as one can only go to heaven through jesus no matter how much good deeds one has done.

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view

2. Right intention

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration

Again, as per someone else's account that they were eyewitnesses or there were eyewitnesses. One can only trust.

_________________________________________________________________

Just like Gautama Buddha foretelling his disciples about his passing. Right?

You are trusting "the church's explanation", right? We weren't there. One can only trust.

Ok. So, where was he and what was he doing?

1. It's a problem of truth AND logic. The law of non-contradiction.

2. Yes, suffering is still here. But not forever. The Bible teaches that God will put an end to all suffering and death. And God proved this by raising Jesus from the dead. Death could not hold Jesus. That's what the resurrection is all about. If Jesus died and remained dead, then He offered no hope at all. Just a record of good teachings that's all.

3. Again whether you physically go and look for the spide or not is irrelevant, the point is that you or the doctor can identify the CAUSE and thus the right CURE can be prescribed. That's the point I want to make, really. Was the cause irrelevant and does not matter at all? I am sure you would disagree.

4. As for kidnapped, at least I know the cause of why I was in the forest! I was kidnapped and then rendered unconscious and ended up in a forest. And if this is the condition I find myself to be in, this condition would also be the same for everyone else, including Buddha. He needs help as much as I do. But I do not see how this analogy is relevant at all to the question of whether there is a Creator God who caused the universe to exist.

5. That a teaching of some religious leader is still followed by adherents today cannot be used as a litmus test for truth. Yes, Buddha claimed to showed the way out of suffering and salvation into Nirvana state. But as I mentioned, the fact that he still suffered and died is different from Jesus who suffered, died AND rose again from the dead to show that suffering and death has no hold over Him.

6. Regarding the 8 Fold Path, can you 100% follow it in this life? How about two lifetimes? Or three? Like the 10 Commandments of the Bible, I think this 8 Fold Path is impossible to achieve. Do you know of anyone living who claimed to have met all of them from the time he was born?

7. It is also true that one can only trust the eyewitnesses accounts. Which is also why the Gospels are highly regarded because the events recorded were well within the lifetime of the eyewitnesses. They were not written down centuries after the events. If you regard as reliable a document that was written down 500 years after the event by people who were not there, then how much more reliable should you regard a document that was written down within 50 years of the event by eyewitnesses themselves?

8. Are you then saying that it doesn't matter whether one follows the Buddha or Jesus? I don't think so. Both made exclusive claims and it would be watering down their teachings to say that it doesn't matter which "farmer or vegetable seller" you go to. Moreover, it would be simplistic and misleading to paint this issue as similar to satisfying one's hunger pangs.

9. The salvation I talked about was the delivery from the ultimate effects of sin, an eternal life in hell. And it is not about walking or dressing like Jesus did. That is mere conforming to outward appearance. The Bible talks about a transformation, a new creation.

10. If I were still alive at 80 years old, I would also be telling people of my impending death! But Jesus was about 33 years and spoke specifically about how He would be taken and killed and rose from the dead. Unusual claims, don't you think.

11. Where did you get the idea that Jesus was 3 days 3 nights in the belly of a fish? You have confused yourself. He was likening Himself to the OT prophet Jonah, that He would be dead and buried for 3 days and after that He would rise again. He was talking about the time frame.

12. Yes, we can only trust the sources we have. That's why it is called faith. But our faith is only as good as the OBJECT of our faith. You cannot put your faith in counterfeit money, but you can put your faith in real money which is backed by the government and legal tender.

I hope I have addressed most of your questions. I am enjoying this exchange.

An Eternal Now SG

6. There were countless arahants from the time of Buddha till today who have perfected the 8 fold path.

You don't have to be perfect in the beginning, but when wisdom arises and eradicates the roots of passion, aggression and delusion, your 8 fold path is naturally perfected.

zeus29 SG

1. It's a problem of truth AND logic. The law of non-contradiction.

Which is?

hence, we work on our suffering rather than waiting and hoping.

and buddha has indentified the cause and presribed the medicine. isn't it wise to take the cure?

"at least I know the cause of why I was in the forest!" so, what good is it?

" And if this is the condition I find myself to be in, this condition would also be the same for everyone else, including Buddha. He needs help as much as I do." -> exactly! and he found the way out and showed it to others and that everyone else too can be like him!

"the question of whether there is a Creator God who caused the universe to exist." -> exactly! the question itself is irrelevant to us buddhists. So what if there is creator god or not? we're already here and we are in charge of our own destiny and we live our life to the fullest. no?

what do you mean that he suffered? human vessel subject to human wear and tear. isn't that normal?

so, jesus didn't suffer when he was tormented by the soldiers?

"impossible to achieve" to whose account?

Noble eightfold path is quite impartial and very non-exclusive.

1. Right view -> don't you see other people's view to see the bigger picutre before making decisions?

2. Right intention-> do you have unwholesome wishes for others?

3. Right speech -> do you deceit others?

4. Right action -> are you robbing/killing others?

5. Right livelihood -> are you robbing/killing/cheating others to earn your living?

6. Right effort -> don't you go all out and get things done?

7. Right mindfulness -> don't you know what you're doing and where you are?

8. Right concentration -> don;t you concentrate?

dude, did you read about the four reliances earlier? buddhists don't take everything literally. we pay more attention to the message.

yes, i'm saying that it doesn't matter. why should it?

"it doesn't matter which "farmer or vegetable seller" you go to" -> does it? does it matter to you which exact cow you got your milk from? which exact chicken that laid the eggs?

"it would be simplistic " -> must it be complicated?

"misleading" -> what is?

transformation of the mind? sounds like buddhist teachings to me.

what about those who died at 108 years old or those at 12 years old etc? also, i don;t think it's unusual. it was just forthcoming. if one goes out in the open and shout anti-govt slogans, one can expect to be arrested and tried. I'm sure you've read about judas conspiracy theory right? What if there could be some truth in it?

also, in modern setting, i'm sure you already know about the aum shinrikyo cult in japan. since, the leader had predicted a doomsday, the inner circle had to make it happen to sustain the faith of other members. right?

who said jesus? i think "you have confused yourself" :) also, really? 3 days in the belly of a great fish?

really? i was told that the notes printed have 3 copies. so how?

troublemaker2005 SG

Your point is also noted but if I were to respond it would be to deviate far from the original point of the analogy too. Point being that a doctor who knows the cause or being able to identify the correct cause may not always come up with an effective cure. esp in modern day medical industires. they will route and make you take more medicines esp private clinics and practitioner so they can make more money. moeny? churches understand what is money, right?

BroInChrist SG

6. There were countless arahants from the time of Buddha till today who have perfected the 8 fold path.

You don't have to be perfect in the beginning, but when wisdom arises and eradicates the roots of passion, aggression and delusion, your 8 fold path is naturally perfected.

The point I was also driving at is whether you know of anyone who have followed the 8 fold path 100% from birth to death. Since you said there were countless people having done so from 500BC till today, I suppose it would not be difficult for you to drop some names of historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?

zeus29 SG

"historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?" ->

firstly, "observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?", really? are you for real, broinchrist? do you know how to speak right out from your mom's womb or know science, maths, etc? seriously, dude? is this the level of mentality i'm actually having exchange with?

secondly, mind you, as mentioned earlier, not just historical, present and future too. people can follow the noble eight paths.

BroInChrist SG

"historical people who have observed the 8 fold path perfectly in their life from birth to death?" ->

secondly, mind you, as mentioned earlier, not just historical, present and future too. people can follow the noble eight paths.

I am sensing your increasing hostility towards me and the increasingly ad hominem nature of your postings to me. Try to exercise more calm please.

The phrase "birth to death" is simply meant to speak of one's entire life. No where am I even suggesting that babies can talk. That you would even think of this might perhaps well reflect the level of mentality I'm actually dealing with! ; )

I am not saying that people cannot follow the 8 fold path. I am asking if people can perfectly follow it in one lifetime, not to mention countless lifetimes.

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