Vajrasattva Purification

last SG · 2012-02-13T08:52:10+00:00

Simpo_, please do not say that you should not have brought up this practice.I think, correct me if I am wrong, I think, a forum should discuss controversial...

simpo_ SG

I hope you will refrain from cutting and pasting those long discourses, because you and I are studying the same suttas. The difference lies in your perception and my perception.

If we take the time to scruntinise the article, it actually do not run parallel to...

"Now this, monks, is the noble truth of stress:[1] Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful, separation from the loved is stressful, not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

Certain areas have been modified, added, etc. Now the question is... Is this acceptable? If Buddha was here, would he have approved it?

You have done a good job of answering my second question, actually the sutta answered my question, not you. How about the first one?

Did Buddha says we can purify our karma by reciting a mantra 100,000 times?

Hi StriveOn,

I always believe that the best way to find out about anything is to test it out through ourselves. For me, the Vajrasattva Purification works. No need for any debate. To know the answer you just got to find out for yourself.

However, this is not a persuasion that reciting a mantra 100 000 times will purify our karma. This, i really dunno too. :)

StriveOn SG

Hi StriveOn,

However, this is not a persuasion that reciting a mantra 100 000 times will purify our karma. This, i really dunno too. :)

I like your answer. From the heart.

StriveOn SG

Brothers, in my household, I am a Theravada, and my wife is a Mahayana. Sometimes I drop her off at her temple, and I go my way to my temple, strange couple.

We have a lot of discussions at home (we dont call it argument but sometimes it look like it). Always in our mind, we think, what is best.

Many, many years ago, I used to make fun of her 'thousand bows' but in retrospect, I believe I was very mean to her (Sorry ya, wife).

Whenever I learn something, I like to contemplate on it. Contemplating on 2 sentences, sometimes I can derive more fruits than reading a 200 page book.

I always remember what my Great Teacher says about teachings. "Ehi Pasiko". That's what simpo_ just said, "you just got to find out for yourself"

For the records, my wife is no longer with me. She aspired for Pureland (non existent in Theravada) but I still pray very hard for her attainment in Pureland.

I apologise for kicking up so much 'shit' (as they called it). If you have the slightest dislike for me, then you need to return to the sitting cushion.

w/metta

simpo_ SG

Brothers, in my household, I am a Theravada, and my wife is a Mahayana. Sometimes I drop her off at her temple, and I go my way to my temple, strange couple.

We have a lot of discussions at home (we dont call it argument but sometimes it look like it). Always in our mind, we think, what is best.

Many, many years ago, I used to make fun of her 'thousand bows' but in retrospect, I believe I was very mean to her (Sorry ya, wife).

Whenever I learn something, I like to contemplate on it. Contemplating on 2 sentences, sometimes I can derive more fruits than reading a 200 page book.

I always remember what my Great Teacher says about teachings. "Ehi Pasiko". That's what simpo_ just said, "you just got to find out for yourself"

For the records, my wife is no longer with me. She aspired for Pureland (non existent in Theravada) but I still pray very hard for her attainment in Pureland.

I apologise for kicking up so much 'shit' (as they called it). If you have the slightest dislike for me, then you need to return to the sitting cushion.

w/metta

Hi StriveOn,

No worries about offending me. I treat all these responds as testing grounds :)

If i get affected... that will meant that my practice is not effective enough.. problem is not with the other party.. Problem arises when desire fuels a subject-object division... causing being caught up in the story(mind content) of a self.

Regards

sinweiy SG

Pureland (non existent in Theravada) but I still pray very hard for her attainment in Pureland.

good. :)

though fyi here's, "Pure Abode" in pali canon.

The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

Peerless devas (akanittha deva)

Clear-sighted devas (sudassi deva)

Beautiful devas (sudassa deva)

Untroubled devas (atappa deva)

Devas not Falling Away (aviha deva)

These are the five Pure Abodes (suddhavasa), which are accessible only to non-returners (anagami) and arahants. Beings who become non-returners in other planes are reborn here, where they attain arahantship.

-----

below is from Pali canon:-

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/s/suddhaavaasaa.htm

Suddhāvāsā

The "Pure Abodes"; a name given to a group of Brahma-worlds - the five highest Rūpa worlds - consisting of

Avihā,

Atappā,

Sudassā,

Sudassī and

Akanitthā (E.g., D.iii.237).

There anāgāmī are born, and there they attain arahantship; such anāgāmī are divided into twenty four classes (See, e.g., KhA.182f.; of. PSA. 319; Vsm.710).

Bodhisattas are never born there (SNA.i.50; BuA.224).

The Suddhāvāsā are described as buddhānam khandhāvāratthānasadisā. Sometimes, for asankheyyas of kappas, when no Buddhas are born, these worlds remain empty (AA.ii.808; cf. MA.i.30).

The Buddha is mentioned as having visited the Suddhāvāsā (E.g., D.ii.50). When a Buddha is about to be born, the inhabitants of the Suddhāvāsā insert a knowledge of the signs of a Great Being in the Vedas and teach this among men in the guise of brahmins, calling such knowledge buddhamanta. Men learn it and are thus able to recognize a Great Being (MA.ii.761; SNA.ii.448). The inhabitants of the Suddhāvāsā know how many Buddhas will be born in any particular kappa by observing the number of lotuses which spring up on the site of the Bodhi-pallanka when the earth gradually emerges after the destruction of the world (DA.ii.411). It is the Suddhāvāsā Brahmās who provide the four omens which lead to a Bodhisatta's renunciation in his last lay life. See, e.g., DA.ii.455f.

a bit different from PL school, yet some similarity in that it's for "non-returner", meaning this is their last samsaric rebirth if they are reborn there. from there they achieve awakening just like in pure abode, they achieve arahanthood.

Dharmadhatu SG

Did Buddha says we can purify our karma by reciting a mantra 100,000 times?

Hi StriveOn,

In the mahamudra texts it states that one has to continuously practice purification (of any sort, there are many purification practices out there) until the signs arise. In your dreams, in your real life etc.

Unless these signs arise, the number is just a guiding figure, ie, usually for most people, we have to do much more. One of the thing about purification is that it removes obstacles on your path, outer circumstantial obstacles, inner mental / emotional obstacles etc. It is important to be thorough about this as it is like gathering the fuels and necessities for a long journey (of reaching realisation) ahead... except for some exceptional people with very conducive past karmas, the road to realisation will often be filled with all kinds of sidetracks/ distractions/obstacles/ripenings... etc. And the practice of purification is a way to lessen that so that either the obstacle is diminished, removed or you are able in some way or other to deal with it in future. Hence, for practitioners of Mahamudra/Dzogchen, it is considered very helpful to do much purification first.

In fact, even in the Mahayana tradition, this has been stated in a Sutra on telling the good and bad karmas by Ksitigarbha that we should try to purify to a certain degree before going into shamatha / vipassana. The sutra even prescribes a way to check one's level of purification.

Dharmadhatu SG

I would like to add that even if the signs of purifications have arisen doubtlessly, one should still go on purifying as daily life often is a source of much negativities.

StriveOn SG

good. :)

though fyi here's, "Pure Abode" in pali canon.

The Thirty-one Planes of Existence
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

Peerless devas (akanittha deva)

Clear-sighted devas (sudassi deva)

Beautiful devas (sudassa deva)

Untroubled devas (atappa deva)

Devas not Falling Away (aviha deva)

-----

below is from Pali canon:-

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/s/suddhaavaasaa.htm

Suddhāvāsā

The "Pure Abodes"; a name given to a group of Brahma-worlds - the five highest Rūpa worlds - consisting of

Avihā,

Atappā,

Sudassā,

Sudassī and

Akanitthā (E.g., D.iii.237).

There anāgāmī are born, and there they attain arahantship; such anāgāmī are divided into twenty four classes (See, e.g., KhA.182f.; of. PSA. 319; Vsm.710).

Bodhisattas are never born there (SNA.i.50; BuA.224).

The Suddhāvāsā are described as buddhānam khandhāvāratthānasadisā. Sometimes, for asankheyyas of kappas, when no Buddhas are born, these worlds remain empty (AA.ii.808; cf. MA.i.30).

My prefernce is still along the line of sotopana, sagadagami, anagami => arahant

Thanks, have not been reading those for a long time.

StriveOn SG

Hi StriveOn,

Fully agree with you. My late wife used to chant or bow, if not 100,000 times, at least more than a 1,000 times during her sittings.

So the conclusion is Our Great Teacher did not say it, but we try to improvise so that we can still achieve the goals that Our Great Teacher set for us. We must keep that in mind otherwise we loose track.

To me, The Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path is like the company's Vision, Mission Statement, Quality Policy and Shared Values, all put together. Whenever I come across something, I measure it againts these yardsticks. I find that of late, there are a lot of new 'teachings' that do not measure up against those basic teachings and I become agitated (I know, this is not very midnful). But do they tell you? No. I feel sorry for the newly initiated who is trying to absorb what is given to them. They are not getting the right stuff.

I came the same way. I have to read many books from different authors, on the same topic, just to find out the essence of a teaching. You know Our Great Teacher, when he give a discourse, it usually is so profound that in its raw form most of us do not understand. So we have this commentaries and annotations that can fill up a few volumes. It is not their fault but our ignorance to percieve some of these commentaries as words spoken by Buddha. And as these material goes from one to another, the meanings of the original teachings could have been modified.

Thanks for the reply.

An Eternal Now SG

to sinweiy: dont really agree that we can link pure land with pure abodes, since pure abodes minimum entry requirement is anagami

simpo_ SG

Fully agree with you. My late wife used to chant or bow, if not 100,000 times, at least more than a 1,000 times during her sittings.

Thanks for the reply.

Hi StriveOn,

I fully agree with you too. It was confusing for me too in the beginning.

Nvertheless, on hindsight, I do feel that the core teachings of (Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path) are still found in each of the main schools, namely Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. The presentation of them may be different though.

To me, Theravada is still the most clear and systematic. The stages of stream entry, once returner, non returner and arhant and what each stage is like is most systematic.

To me, Dzogchen and Mahamudra are very clear too. However, their presentation is different and they also entails certain insights that are not so much emphasized in Theravada. Nevertheless, most of these insights are presented in Theravada too.

To me, Theravada lays the foundation. Every serious practitioner should go through the Theravada teaching. They are the core teachings that no serious practitioner should skip through. For certain detailed explanation and description of workings after initial insights (into non-dual, no-self and emptiness), I find the Mahamudra and Dzogchen teachings very helpful.

These are just my experiences only though.

Regards

sinweiy SG

to sinweiy: dont really agree that we can link pure land with pure abodes, since pure abodes minimum entry requirement is anagami

hence i said, a bit different from PL school.

similarity is sort of in the sense of a "last" rebirth.

III. The Different Types of Pure Lands

[In addition to the Pure Land of Ultimate Bliss, there are many other pure lands.] The many pure lands can be classified into four main categories: the distinctive pure lands of the Mahayana School, the pure land of the Three Vehicles, the pure land of the Five Vehicles, and the pure land on Earth.

http://www.blia.org/english/publications/booklet/pages/14.htm

sinweiy SG

the Saddha Sutta on Conviction also quite "PL"(with a hidden message) to me. since PL is also on conviction/faith.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an05/an05.038.than.html

So with the person consummate in virtue & conviction, humble, sensitive, gentle, delightful, & mild: To him come those without effluent — free from passion, free from aversion, free from delusion — the field of merit for the world. They teach him the Dhamma that dispels all stress. And when he understands, he is freed from effluents, totally unbound.

delightful sphere? birds and massive tree? dispels all stress? totally unbound? :)

and so is the Buddho recitation.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/thate/buddho.html

Dharmadhatu SG

Hi StriveOn,

I fully agree with you too. It was confusing for me too in the beginning.

To me, Theravada is still the most clear and systematic. The stages of stream entry, once returner, non returner and arhant and what each stage is like is most systematic.

These are just my experiences only though.

Regards

Yes simpo, agree very much with you. After i come to this forum, my understandings have changed alot. I think many people jump too fast. If we go according to the path you suggested, i think our understanding of the Mahamudra/Dzogchen teachings would be much deeper and stronger, ie, the Theravada teachings are a very helpful and necessary understanding beforehand.

An Eternal Now SG

Agree with simpo’s and dharmadhatu’s statements.

Just a note with regards to repentance, which is an alternative and highly effective method for purifying karma. Even in the pali canon, many examples are given how a karma that would have resulted in a rebirth of lower realm have been averted simply by the act of repentance, apology and seeking forgiveness.

In Mahayana, we ask a person to recite the repentance verse sincerely and prostrate to the Buddha for 108 times or more. Many do this regularly such as everyday. I used to do it when younger as a regular practice. Now I only meditate.

Anyway the repentance verse is this:

http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol6no2c.htm

All the evil karma that I have committed in the past,
Arising from my aeons of greed, anger and ignorance,
Committed by my body, speech and mind,
Now I repent before the Buddha.

往昔所造诸恶业，皆由无始贪瞋痴，从身语意之所生，今在佛前求忏悔.
....

It occurred to me that not only should we repent for evil karma, we should repent to having given rise to desire, anger, and ignorance. We should repent to the Buddha for not carrying out his teaching. Otherwise why mention three poisons? Just “I repent for my bad karma” is enough.

Having repented this way, we should make a resolve that in this very life, may I be completely liberated from the afflictions of craving, anger, and aversion.

Then we should act and practice according to this resolve and never let up. We should constantly renew and act upon this resolve.

May we all be liberated in this life!

An Eternal Now SG

Hi StriveOn,

I fully agree with you too. It was confusing for me too in the beginning.

To me, Theravada is still the most clear and systematic. The stages of stream entry, once returner, non returner and arhant and what each stage is like is most systematic.

These are just my experiences only though.

Regards

Thusness, 2008:

(10:39 PM) Thusness:    It is difficult to find one that has arising prajna insight.
(10:39 PM) AEN:    that means insight into emptiness?
(10:40 PM) Thusness:    Yes and DO.
(10:40 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:41 PM) Thusness:    Despite it being a raft, it enables the mind to have a right view of our pristine nature.
(10:41 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    The way that even many dzogchen practitioner expressed is still very much dualistic
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    But no comments
(10:42 PM) AEN:    icic..
(10:42 PM) Thusness:    Many practitioners wants the direct path and ended up neither here nor there.
(10:43 PM) AEN:    oic..
(10:44 PM) Thusness:    Even practicing the simplest teachings in Theravada will bring us there.

....

(7:13 PM) Thusness: it is quite pitiful that the teaching of Theravada despite so clear is being distorted to such an extend.
(7:13 PM) Thusness: that anatta is not understood as non-dual.

...

(12:50 PM) Thusness:    for now, just know about anatta.
(12:50 PM) Thusness:    u see, even for one to know that anatta is non-dual and as manifestation, it is already rare.
(12:51 PM) Thusness:    for so many Theravada practitioners misunderstood it.

...

(11:34 PM) Thusness:    When a practitioner see anatta and insight arise, he sees non-dual directly and naturally
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    However when we see Element, he can't see it and said Buddha did not teach abt non-dual
(11:35 PM) Thusness:    how amazing
(11:36 PM) AEN:    icic..
(11:36 PM) Thusness:    And many Theravada masters
(11:36 PM) AEN:    u mean they also dun understand
(11:37 PM) Thusness:    Buddhism is going through a period of great distortion
(11:37 PM) AEN:    oic..
(11:38 PM) Thusness:    Even the most clearest teachings can be distorted
(11:39 PM) Thusness:    One vehicle against another

...

(9:19 PM) Thusness:    When I said what I understood, I merely talk about my experience.
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    neither do I represent Dzogchen or Mahamudra.
(9:19 PM) Thusness:    or Theravada or Mahayana.
(9:20 PM) Thusness:    It is just my experience that I have undergone after practicing the teaching of Buddhism.
(9:20 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:20 PM) Thusness:    No views at my current stage can confuse me. :)
(9:20 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:20 PM) Thusness:    Coz I have already stabilized my experience.
(9:20 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:21 PM) Thusness:    So it really doesn't matter who said what.

...

(4:24 PM) Thusness: all path are the same, there is no different. Be it Dzogchen or Theravada. It is all the same when understood correctly.

...

(3:21 PM) Thusness:    therefore concentration is still needed until insight arises, that it is always so.
(3:21 PM) Thusness:    there never was a self and no-self is a seal.
(3:21 PM) Thusness:    that always is.
(3:21 PM) Thusness:    then it has to sink deep into our inmost consciousness
(3:22 PM) Thusness:    it will come a day that we are so clear of non-dual luminosity and emptiness.
(3:22 PM) Thusness:    and all the teaching of Buddha. :)
(3:22 PM) Thusness:    u will be able to c the links of all the teachings from Theravada to Dzogchen. All are the same.
(3:23 PM) Thusness:    No point arguing really. :P

...

(3:02 PM) Thusness:    u should focus on this. As it requires deep experience and insight to realise it.
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    that DO and emptiness and anatta, seeing 'verb' as the right view of non-duality.
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    right understanding.
(3:03 PM) AEN:    icic..
(3:03 PM) Thusness:    then Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana and Dzogchen becomes one.

...

(9:07 PM) Thusness:    u must have deeper clarity of the difference between Advaita and Buddhism.
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    u must know that Buddhism is really talking about non-duality
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    every aspect of the teaching
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    is to point to the correct understanding of non-duality
(9:08 PM) Thusness:    from Theravada to mahayana to dzogchen
(9:09 PM) Thusness:    but the right understanding of non-dual experience
(9:09 PM) AEN:    icic..
(9:09 PM) Thusness:    That includes yogacara
(9:10 PM) AEN:    oic..
(9:10 PM) Thusness:    But the right view towards non-duality

An Eternal Now SG

（2008）

(9:22 AM) Thusness:    Actually there is no true practice before the realisation that our anatta nature. For practice must be effortless. It all boils down to this particular insight of no-self and emptiness. It is a wrong understanding that prevents one from seeing the true nature of our mind and therefore whatever practices and understanding will be distorted.
(9:24 AM) Thusness:    As for the 4 phases, it is not a form of observing, it is rather getting it deepest core of our consciousness in the form of imprints that the nature of mind is no-self and empty. This is most challenging and we cannot rush into it.
(9:26 AM) Thusness:    Many will tell u about the ordinariness after enlightenment but they don't really understand the meaning of it. It is similar to one kept talking about effortlessness and spontaneous arising; but without the true insight of no-self and emptiness, there is no real understanding of effortless and therefore are mere empty talks.
(9:27 AM) Thusness:    It is through the insight of emptiness and no-self that a practitioner becomes effortless in practice.
(10:45 AM) AEN:    oic..
(10:47 AM) Thusness:    practitioner will feel these aspects of ordinariness and effortlessness, spontaneity in all phases of practices.
(10:48 AM) Thusness:    even in the very first phase of insight into "I AMness", they will make such comments.
(10:49 AM) Thusness:    Those are not insights into our nature.
(10:50 AM) Thusness:    So for u, practice and understand what anatta and emptiness are then u will know why all those comments are made.
(10:51 AM) AEN:    icic..
(10:55 AM) Thusness:    of all teachings, nothing is more clear than there is no-self, only aggregates.
(10:56 AM) Thusness:    It is the common sentient that fail to understand the essence of what Buddha taught.
(10:57 AM) Thusness:    then comes zen and dzogchen and all are yanas. If teachings are understood correctly, it meant self-liberation.
(10:58 AM) Thusness:    even Buddha after going such length, practitioners still can't understand the essence and then came so many turnings.
(10:58 AM) Thusness:    of the wheels i meant.
(10:59 AM) Thusness:    so when u practice, know that whether dzogchen or zen or whatever vehicles, it is all talking about the basic teachings.
(10:59 AM) Thusness:    if we can't c that, then practice becomes futile.

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