Learning Buddhism starts with Taking Refuge

last SG · 2011-08-20T02:07:24+00:00

You should find a dharma center, a monastery, whose teachings you think you resonate with.Then, take refuge in that center, with the master or guru as witnes...

An Eternal Now SG

There are many ways to solve problem. You are just dogmatic.

Intellectualization cannot comprehend dharma, that's all.

I No Stupid SG

The eightfold path is the solution.

The 4NTs simply state what the Buddha realised.

The 4NTs is certainly what Buddha had formulated. And his approach was similar to problem-solving method employed today. I would give Buddha credits for this since management science or management studies is less than 200 years or so.

I No Stupid SG

Intellectualization cannot comprehend dharma, that's all.

I disagree. Buddha did a lot of intellectualization. And scholar-monks do.

An Eternal Now SG

I disagree. Buddha did a lot of intellectualization. And scholar-monks do.

Intellectualization is different from experiential realization, and only experiential realization can result in liberation and a true experiential understanding of things.

And I disagree that the Buddha did a lot of intellectualization, as he simply, and directly comprehend phenomena in his experience.

Therefore,

The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what feeling is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what perception is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what the mental formations are, and how they arise, and pass away. He has understood what consciousness is, and how it arises, and passes away.

Therefore, I say, the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection, and getting rid of all opinions and conjectures, of all inclination to the vainglory of I and mine.

- Majjhima Nikaya, 72

I No Stupid SG

Intellectualization is different from experiential realization, and only experiential realization can result in liberation and a true experiential understanding of things.

And I disagree that the Buddha did a lot of intellectualization, as he simply, and directly comprehend phenomena in his experience.

Therefore,

hmmm .... how did the Perfect One understood? If indeed he understood something according to his own understanding or experience, then why theorise?

Like I said before, if he had the experience, why spend 6 years wandering and wondering?

An Eternal Now SG

hmmm .... how did the Perfect One understood? If indeed he understood something according to his own understanding or experience, then why theorise?

Like I said before, if he had the experience, why spend 6 years wandering and wondering?

He spent 6 years on the wrong path, i.e. hardcore ascetism, practicing the formless absorptions under 2 meditation teachers which didn't lead to liberation, for example.

After he remembered an experience of the 1st jhana he had when he was 5 years old, he pursued that path, entered into the four jhanas, and attained the three knowledges which are experiential insights. After which he became enlightened and liberated.

He did not theorize at all.

An Eternal Now SG

By the way I don't understand your question "if he had the experience, why spend 6 years wandering and wondering?"

It is precisely because he didn't have the experience of the end of suffering, that is why he spent time trying to seek that experience and realization.

I No Stupid SG

He spent 6 years on the wrong path, i.e. hardcore ascetism, practicing the formless absorptions under 2 meditation teachers which didn't lead to liberation, for example.

He did not theorize at all.

If you say someone sits in a quiet corner to ponder a problem, gain insight and come up with the solution - it is perfectly acceptable. That 'insight' could have come about thru contemplation, past experience, past learning or knowledge and even intuition. However, if you say the very same person came up with a solution thru experential realization, then you have to say what was his experience. He must have the same experience of a similar problem before he can come up with a solution. And if he had the experience before, he wouldn't have to waste 6 yrs doing the wrong things as you claimed.

An Eternal Now SG

It is precisely he did not have that experience until he contemplated and experientially realized himself through his meditation.

He realized the four noble truths.

I No Stupid SG

It is precisely he did not have that experience until he contemplated and experientially realized himself through his meditation.

He realized the four noble truths.

There are several meanings to the word 'realize' - to make concrete, to accomplish, to make it seems real. The issue is how he 'realised'. That the Buddha came up with the 4NT is not in question whatever words are used to express that. When you said 'experential' realization - you are saying he realised the 4NT by experience only.

Dawnfirstlight SG

Can you be sure the Dhammapada is the Buddha's words only and does not contained some words from its writers'?

The 4NT did NOT imply the refuge. It is your implication.

The refuge is like a respite from the world of samsara, The sarana is like a place where one goes to find peace, security and safety. By all means take refuge but the title of this thread is 'learning Buddhism starts with taking refuge' - to which I disagree. You are barking up the wrong tree.

You sound as if you are better than Buddha. You are just here for the sake of arguing and trying to show others that you are different from the rest. For goodness sake, please don't interpret the sutras as you pleased. You are the only one interpreting it differently. It cannot be you are correct, thousands and millions including the Venerables are wrong.

I would suggest moderators to delete "I NOT STUPID" postings inorder not to confuse the beginners.

sinweiy SG

said before, i like Hui Neng's approach as not to mislead followers in taking refuge in Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, he totally changed the word to taking refuge in Awareness觉, Proper 正and Purity净 respectively.

pls read:

Taking Refuge in the Triple Jewels
http://www.amtb.org.tw/e-bud/releases/tjewels.htm

i also think Intellect is not equal to wisdom. wisdom need experience and morality. if not Intellect can also be use to commit crimes and hurt people.

Wisdom is more than just understanding on an intellectual level. It is only realized when it becomes part of compassionate support.

You can only increase your wisdom if you are compassionate, and you increase your compassion as you acquire wisdom. One could use the image of a bicycle to explain this truth. In this image, the two wheels of the bicycle would represent wisdom and compassion. The front wheel, which steers the bicycle, is wisdom, and the back wheel, which drives the bicycle forward, is compassion. The bicycle only functions when both wheels are in order. You could say that the back wheel can only move forward when the front wheel moves forward as well. Or you could say that the bicycle can only move forward properly when both wheels move forward. The pedaling has to be done by you, though. And the steering.

Cleverness is not going to solve the real problems of the world, like war, civil strife, poverty and the high incidence of violence. Neither is it going to solve the mental problems so rife in the modern world. Only wisdom and compassion can solve these problems.

Only wisdom and compassion can give cleverness the right direction. It can turn science into true progress. It can turn economy into something serving the people and the environment, and not just profit and greed.

Without these qualities, science can become a nightmare. Nuclear power has been used to create weapons of mass destruction. Technology has been used to destroy people’s livelihoods. Even medicine is often used in a heartless way in service of profit, causing unnecessary suffering to millions of poor people and sending them prematurely to their deaths.

We are witnessing what damage can be done by economic systems serving mainly greed and profit, and how they increase rather than diminish suffering and destruction. Only compassion can turn cleverness into wisdom, and inspire economic systems dedicated to improving conditions for all, and to sustaining the environment for future generations.

Only compassion and wisdom can solve the mental problems so rife in the world today, for they can tame greed, the source of so much exploitation, dissatisfaction and futility.

sinweiy SG

i prefer it's best to use the heart/mind to take refuge. 心皈依(不是行式皈依).

our MCK and even Nathan president of SG also know 佛法重实质,不重形式. Buddhism stress on the actual doing than the apparent gesture. not that gesture is no good, they are good in terms of displining oneself.

This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "Even if a monk, taking hold of my outer cloak, were to follow right behind me, placing his feet in my footsteps, yet if he were to be greedy for sensual pleasures, strong in his passions, malevolent in mind, corrupt in his resolves, his mindfulness muddled, unalert, uncentered, his mind scattered, & his faculties uncontrolled, then he would be far from me, and I from him. Why is that? Because he does not see the Dhamma. Not seeing the Dhamma, he does not see me.

"But even if a monk were to live one hundred leagues away, yet if he were to have no greed for sensual objects, were not strong in his passions, not malevolent in mind, uncorrupt in his resolves, his mindfulness established, alert, centered, his mind at singleness, & his faculties well-restrained, then he would be near to me, and I to him. Why is that? Because he sees the Dhamma. Seeing the Dhamma, he sees me."

Though following right behind,

full of desire, vexation:

see how far he is! —

the perturbed

from the unperturbed,

the bound

from the Unbound,

the greedy one

from the one with no greed.

But the wise person who, through

direct knowledge of Dhamma,

gnosis of Dhamma,

grows still & unperturbed

like a lake unruffled by wind:

see how close he is! —

the unperturbed to the unperturbed,

the Unbound to the Unbound,

the greedless one

to the one with no greed.

Itivuttaka's Sanghaṭikaṇṇa Sutta. Scroll down to Sutta 92

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.3.050-099.than.html

An Eternal Now SG

He realized 4NT solely through the path of meditative absorption (the jhanas), plus the vipassana awareness of one's direct experience. Means he was observing his own experience in a meditative setting.

geis SG

Direct realization can only be understood when there is a shift in perception. This requires the mind to realize Itself.

Before one realizes this, it is impossible to relate the unconditioned to the conceptual conditioned mind.

An Eternal Now SG

Yes. What is required is a quantum shift of perception through direct experiential realization, a direct experiential awakening. Concepts are not important and are ultimately to be relinquished.

lastime SG

Wah I type so nicely in response to INS end up only AEN aknowledge my post.So what have this come to?should we put this as a debating forum or a grammer/word correcting forum? Where people come in to debate their way or correct people posts/threads?

realization SG

lol.

Amitayus48 SG

Amazing that alot of buddha seeds are progressing as the lotus sutra stated it -若人散乱入於塔庙中, 一称南无佛皆已成佛道。Buddha Sakyamuni was having only a meal per day, who lived and delivered dharma under a tree. Apparently, the common sense would prevail that the problem solving is entirely different on its root cause.

As for pureland, according to sutra – 亿亿万人修行,罕一得道, 唯依念佛,得度生死-即是净土法门。Namaste. Namo Amitabha Buddha

lastime SG

Amazing ..............................................................................................................................

....................... – 亿亿万人修行,罕一得道, 唯依念佛,得度生死-即是净土法门。Namaste. Namo Amitabha Buddha

Can Mr 48 elaborate more into layman terms on what you posted?

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