Just found a conversation I thought was very clear:
http://www.jamesbraha.com/chapter_21.html
July 15 – Day 1
James:
You say that the reference point is false. Can’t we say that the
mind, or thoughts, are the reference point?
Bob:
Yes, but thought has no substance; you can’t grasp a thought—it has
no independent nature. Can you have a thought without awareness? Is
a thought independent?
James:
No.
Bob:
So, the thought is believed to be the reference point because we’ve
never questioned it. As soon as that “I” thought comes upon a
little child, he believes “this is what I am.” He goes through his
reasoning, and if he wasn’t good at school that day, he thinks,
“I’m not good enough,” or “I’m not smart enough.” He adds all these
thoughts to form that mental picture. But that “I” thought on its
own can’t be grasped. It’s nothing. The reference point, or self
center, is just a bunch of images. It’s got no independent nature.
We’re being driven by a phantom.
James:
Ever since I’ve been studying Advaita, I’ve been wondering this: If
it’s not us doing things, who’s doing it? We’re being lived, right?
Who’s living us?
Bob:
[Laughing] James . . . who wants to know? That’s your
false self center again. That’s the ego again, thinking you and I
are so great that we’re doing the thinking, or something “out
there” is doing the thinking.
In
nature, there’s just one movement of
energy!
James:
Did something create all this existence?
Bob:
It isn’t created; it’s transient. As our reference point, we think
of a life of billions of years, and we can’t conceptualize
it. But nothing’s ever been created.
James:
So, this conversation is not happening?
Bob:
Well, it’s happening in the appearance. If a cloud comes along, is
it attached to the sky?
James:
No.
Bob:
Well, that’s just like the concepts that come into your mind. What
happens to the cloud in the sky? It comes along and then blows
away. Use the metaphor of “space-like awareness.” It’s like space,
empty. But, instead of being empty in a void, like space, it’s
“cognizing emptiness.” It has that capacity of knowing.
It’s imbued with a natural intelligence—not like the intellect that
knows this and that. But pure intelligence, the same intelligence
that is functioning in the universe, is keeping the stars in orbit
and causing the wind to blow and all that. The pure intelligence is
making the trees grow, and it’s beating your heart and growing your
fingernails; it’s doing all those things right now. It’s causing
your thoughts to happen. But that’s just like clouds in the sky,
not attached anywhere. It just comes and then moves on. The energy
is constantly vibrating.
James:
I have this concept that there is this consciousness, or
oneness.
Bob:
Yes, you have a concept.
James:
From this oneness sprang the appearance, right? That makes
consciousness the creator, no?
Bob:
Just take the ocean and the waves. On the ocean, a ripple or a wave
appears. The wave may rise and splash or spray, but, what is it?
It’s only water. It’s never been anything other than
water—appearing as difference.
James:
Okay, so what’s happening now between you and me is consciousness
appearing as a conversation.
Bob:
Don’t try to conceptualize consciousness. That’s only a label we
put on it. It’s emptiness that has the capacity of knowing. I don’t
mean knowing this or that, or the intellect. But knowing that you
are right now. That’s prior to thought. Just that pure
knowing, which you can’t negate.
James:
So, it’s emptiness that is capable of knowing?
Bob:
It’s not one that is capable of something. The two are actually one
and the same. “Cognizing emptiness” or “emptiness cognizing.”
That’s all.
James:
What is cognizing?
Bob:
Just seeing.
James:
So, it’s just cognizing. There’s no intelligence behind
it?
Bob:
Well, you can say that cognizing is intelligence. Knowing is
intelligence. Not the knower and the known, but pure knowing. So
it’s the activity of knowing.
Right
now, that knowing that you are is with you, isn’t
it?
James:
Yes.
Bob:
Now, knowing is not the knower or the known. It’s actually what is
happening now: knowing. So, it’s going on right now. That knowing
is an activity, and activity is energy. So, pure intelligence
energy is activity of knowing. That’s all it is. The world appears
and disappears in that knowingness. The knowingness is just purely
knowing. The appearance and disappearance can only be
conceptualized from a reference point—from an erroneous belief! For
example, take seeing. You’re seeing right now. Then the thought
comes up, “I see.” But the actual seeing was happening before the
thought. With the thought, you’ve created a pseudo-seer. When you
say, “I see the tree,” you’ve created a pseudo-object—a subject and
object in form. But can there be a seer or a seen without
seeing?
James:
No.
Bob:
Those are just labels that we attach. Like the thinker and the
thought. Always remember what Nisargadatta said, “You try to grasp
it with a concept and you fail. And you are bound to fail, because
you can never grasp it with a concept.” You must stop trying to
conceptualize everything.
James:
So everything is just happening?
Bob:
Exactly. It’s all happening by itself, as itself. And nothing is
happening!
James:
How do you explain that nothing is happening?
Bob:
Using the metaphor of space-like awareness, all this manifestation
is the content of space. There’s nothing you can think of that’s
outside of space. So the appearance is the content of space. If
space is nothing, can something come from
nothing?
James:
Why does it feel so real?
Bob:
[Laughing] To who?
James:
To my thoughts.
Bob:
Yes, and the thoughts are part of the appearance also! In essence,
the appearance is real because it is made of presence awareness,
which is real. Look at how a mirage appears real. Or the blue color
of the sea. Within intelligence energy, patterns are forming and
displaying as this manifestation.
James:
For so many years, I’ve wondered how there could be a God that
could allow all the horrible wars and torture and so on. But if the
manifestation is an appearance, none of this is really happening.
Right? Nothing is tragic, correct?
Bob:
That’s right. The people were never born, and they can never die.
They’re just patterns of energy. They appear, play around for a
while, and then disappear. In fact, they’re still just the one
intelligence energy. It’s never changed.
James:
I have a question about spiritual experiences. Sometimes, usually
late at night in bed, I suddenly feel infinite or vast—without any
boundaries or limitations. The next day, I’ll tell my wife or my
friend Kerry, “I had an experience.” But, actually, what has
happened is that the feelings and thoughts that are usually going
on have disappeared. The unboundedness I sometimes experience at
night is actually always present, isn’t it.
Bob:
Yes, but as soon as you labeled it an experience, then you’ve
“taken delivery” of it from the reference
point.
James:
Yes, I understand that.
Bob:
What happened was just experiencing, which the experience
and the experiencer appear on. If your senses are wide open, and
you’re not labeling everything, then you’re just seeing what is.
And you’ll see the wonderful, magical display of it all, appearing
and disappearing, without attributing it to a
“me.”
James:
Does life appear particularly interesting to
you?
Bob:
Again, to be interesting or boring, it has to be from a reference
point. Sometimes there are periods of silence, even long periods;
other times the chatter can be going on. I don’t prefer either one.
The so-called silence that seekers talk about, I couldn’t care less
about. Any more than I care about the chatter. They’re both
experiences. I am that in which the experience takes place. And
that’s constantly and always ever been the same. It is no thing.
It’s no use trying to grasp it as a thing; it contains all
things.
James:
Now, when you make that statement, like Nisargadatta did, that you
are that in which everything takes place, I understand it. But I
can’t say that about myself. I am constantly taking delivery of
stuff. You say you don’t care whether there are lots of thoughts or
no thoughts. I can’t do that.
Bob:
If I took delivery of the reference point, it would be the same.
I’d be thinking,“I shouldn’t have done this,” or “I shouldn’t have
said that.” But I’ve seen through the reference point. I’ve seen
clearly. So, what comes up, comes up. That’s what I mean when I
say, “I couldn’t care less.” It’s not me. It’s just that there’s no
preference, there’s no partiality, no comparison. It’s just what
is: unaltered, unmodified, uncorrected. The Buddhists talk about
“what is.” Just the seeing—the actual functioning. The only thing
you’ll ever alter, modify, or correct is a
thought.
James:
So, we’re going to have thoughts. The point is not to take delivery
of them.
Bob:
Yes, and there’s no one to not take delivery of them. Just
seeing and recognizing.
James:
Yes, well, you can say all this and write the books, and people
will hear you and say, “Well, Sailor Bob can do that, and that’s
great for him. But I can’t do that.” It seems to me that the
significant part is conviction. I understand what you’re saying,
but I don’t yet have the full conviction. . . .
Bob:
Who doesn’t have the conviction? You’ve got that concept
of you, and so you think things should be different. You’re seeing
right now? You’re hearing right now? That knowingness that you are
is with you now, right? You can’t negate that.
James:
Right.
Bob:
So, what’s this rubbish about not having the conviction? You go off
on some conceptual thing. . . .
James:
Right, but why don’t you go off on some conceptual
thing?
Bob:
Because I’ve seen that the reference point is false. Do you see
what you’re doing? I’m pointing it out to you, and you’re going
into the ifs and the buts and all. You’re going into the future.
You move into time again. Time is a mental concept. You move into a
so-called imaginary future. Or you go back into the past. But you
don’t live in the future and the past. Everything happens in the
Now. It’s like a cloud over the sun. It’s blocking out the
knowingness of the Now. These ideas that “I don’t have this” or
“I’ll get the conviction in the future” are keeping you away from
it.
James:
So it’s right here, right now?
Bob:
Yes, it’s immediate. There’s nowhere to go.
James:
Well, yesterday I got really angry at someone. A lady wrote me a
letter that really bothered me.
Bob:
That was yesterday, never mind the past. . . .
James:
When it happened, I thought to myself, “Wait a minute; there is no
James.” And still the upset remained.
Bob:
Yes, because when you say, “There is no me,” that’s become a
reference point. You might have seen there’s no James last week or
last month or yesterday. But that’s dead, like all your other
thoughts. You have to see it right now. Instead of simply saying,
“There’s no me,” have a look. Investigate, in the Now. Look and see
if you can find a self center or a “me.”
James:
Well, at the time I got upset, I stopped and said to myself, “Who
am I? I am presence awareness.” That was clear to me. And still
upsetting thoughts continued.
Bob:
But you were putting the concept “I’m presence awareness” on it.
Without that concept, it’s simply “I am.” Full
stop.
James:
I tried being aware of the present moment. I looked around the room
without labeling anything—just being aware. . .
.
Bob:
Without labeling anything, you just take in the whole thing. You
notice that seeing is happening spontaneously, hearing is happening
spontaneously, immediately.
James:
Well, in any case, I still have to answer her
letter.
Bob:
That’s fine. Just do what you have to do. Let happen whatever
happens. You might write to her while you’re pissed off. Or you
might tell her off or whatever. But there’s no “you” that’s doing
any of that. Whatever occurs is just the way it
happens.
James:
I see. Can we talk about this non-doer issue? That’s very
conceptual for me.
Bob:
Well, I’ll show you. You’re seeing right now, aren’t
you?
James:
Yes.
Bob:
You’re hearing right now. Is your eye saying to you, “I see”? Is
your ear saying to you, “I hear”?
James:
No.
Bob:
So the thought comes up to translate “I see” and “I hear.” But can
that thought“I see”—can it see? And can the thought “I hear”—can it
hear?
James:
You’re telling me something that I’ve read in your book, or heard
you say, twenty times. . . .
Bob:
Well, listen to me right now. Can the thought “I see”—can it
see?
James:
No. The thought is garbage. It’s just a
translation.
Bob:
So the thought has no power
whatsoever.
James:
If the thought has no power, then there is no
doer?
Bob:
The thought “I am aware”—is that the awareness?
James:
No, of course not.
Bob:
The thought “I choose”—is that the choice maker? The thought “I
think”—is that the thinker?
James:
So, if the thought has no power, there is simply no
doer?
Bob:
Of course not. You see, thought has been so closely aligned to that
intelligence. But, in fact, all it does is translate. It translates
into words and labels that we communicate with. Thought is so
closely aligned to pure intelligence energy that it’s come to
believe that it is the pure intelligence energy. Now, when you
see that the mind and the thoughts have no power, do you fall
apart? Do you disappear?
James:
No.
Bob:
You realize that the living is going on quite effortlessly, without
thinking. What’s wrong with right now, unless you think about it?
You pause from thinking for a moment, and you still haven’t fallen
apart. You’re still hearing, seeing, tasting, and life is still
going on. You’re not relying on the thinking.
James:
Yes. Bob, you have students who have been coming to you for years.
What’s their story? Why don’t they eventually “full
stop?”
Bob:
Well, they don’t. . . . The same as you’re going on right now.
[Laughter] But, there are also those who come along and
see it right away.
James:
So far, there is no “full stop” for me. My mind keeps going on and
questioning. The mind keeps wanting a reference
point.
Bob:
You’re trying to stop the mind. But once you see it’s rubbish, just
like the mirage on the road, you’re not bound by
it.
James:
Well, something is happening. Yesterday, I had that annoying letter
from that lady, and I knew that my reaction was nonsense. So it
only bothered me for an hour or so, and then it was gone. A few
years ago, it would have upset me all day long, maybe longer. It’s
gotten better.
Bob:
Yes, it will.
James:
But I don’t like that “it will” part. That’s in the
future.
Bob:
That’s true. But you will drop it quicker. The habit pattern is to
see everything from a reference point. You’ve done that not once or
twice, but constantly—day in and day out for all your life. We’ve
hypnotized ourselves. But when you’ve questioned it and seen the
falseness of it, you can no longer believe in it. Just like you can
no longer believe there’s any water in a
mirage.
James:
Earlier I asked you if you find life exciting or boring. I asked
because it seems like sometimes, when I am remarkably free of the
reference point, everything suddenly appears new and fresh and
amazing. Do you have judgments about the way life
looks?
Bob: I
don’t have judgments, but judgments come up.
James:
What do you do with them?
Bob:
They’re not mine. Who’s to take delivery of them. They come up and
then they go. The whole pattern just goes on.
James:
So, even the people who appear to take delivery of thoughts,
they’re not really taking delivery—they’re just appearing to take
delivery. Right?
Bob:
Yes.
James:
So the people who are suffering massively are really no different
from us. It’s insignificant whether anyone awakens or not. You
know, it’s hard for me to grasp sometimes. It reminds me of an
expression my father used to say: “It doesn’t go through my
head.”
Bob:
Don’t try to conceptualize it. Stay in the experiencing
and then you’ll enjoy it.
James:
Bob, I love the thinking process, and that makes me want
to conceptualize everything. Look at the magnificence of creation:
math, science, art, millions of creatures, open-heart surgery, and
so on. I always want to know who made existence. And the creation
isn’t even real!
Bob:
It’s like a reflection in a mirror. What’s making all these
reflections? Why is this reflection better than the other one?
[Laughing]
James:
Life is so miraculous. There are millions of cells in the body
constantly replacing themselves. Do you ever wonder how or
why?
Bob:
The hows and the whys are finished. Those would be movements
away from it.
James:
Because everything’s already happened?
Bob:
Just be with the happening, and little insights will come up. And
you’ll get answers that are satisfying.
James:
When you had the experience with Nisargadatta where you suddenly
understood what he was saying. . . .
Bob: I
understood him, and I realized, “I’ll never be trapped in the mind
again.” Then I walked out the door, and I was back in it!
[Laughter] But it was never the same again. Of course, sooner
or later the reference point would come up again, but then I’d
realize, “Wait a minute; this is the same old nonsense,” and I’d
see through it. Sometimes, like you said, it would hang around a
few hours or a few days, and then it’s
gone.
James:
When did you see Nisargadatta?
Bob:
In 1976.
James:
Was there much of a difference in your experience of life in 1976
than ten years later because your experience had
deepened?
Bob:
It doesn’t deepen. But the stuff that is covering up presence
awareness just drops off. It can’t deepen, because it’s purely That
and That alone.
James:
If, for example, you had an upsetting experience in 1976 like the
one I had yesterday, wouldn’t there have been more annoyance than
if it had happened in 1986?
Bob:
Sure. But even in 1976 there was an immediate
change....
This is very good conversation. Thanks for sharing.
Awareness/Presence is imbued with knowingness. However, this
knowingness has been hijacked by a sense of self due to ignorant
and false identification. Stripped of identifications as an
individual person, the knowingness will still remain but here it is
presence knowingness instead of an imaginary/believed self that
knows.
It is not an 'I' that know. It is not 'I' that experiences the
life. It is not 'I' that thinks. All these are naturally already
imbued in awareness/presence.
