Open advice to Zenist69

last SG · 2011-01-07T13:04:55+00:00

Funny leh u all want slander fashi at least chose ven ming yi fashi. This fashi gt tarnish the buddhism reputation in spore and caused alot of my relatives n...

bohiruci SG

I welcomed Zenist69 to Wisdom Bliss forum , but would like to point out a certain thing

The inspiration of tai shan lao jun is a wai dao classics but contain relevant truth to Buddhism

from what you posted , you should be a Vajrayana follower .

If your Rinpoche did not say a thing , you as follower must not slander a sramana

The Wai dao classics book are only making up 2% of the Vast Teachings he have given so far , if He is wai dao ,why would he bother to use His Lay teacher Li Ping Nan Tertiary Buddhist notes[flowchart mode] to help elite understand Buddhism .

Sometimes when criticising a Venerable ,we really have to rethink the consequence of those who are new in forum and what repercussion it may holds

Just as Vajrayana buddhism contains several tradition that isnt Buddhist in the first place , but use it to help the nomads to understand Buddhism .Lama Dance is 100% Buddhist originally ? yes or no ?

If you are not happy with the Inspiration words of Tai shan lao jun , Di zi gui ,simply dont listen to it and listen to his talk on Platform sutra in 1984 period and several talk on Wu liang shou jing

About the 1 sutra for 10 years .its pretty controversial .But let me clarify this matter in a neutral point of view

Focusing a sutra have been the main way in which a student of Buddhism can get to "verify" and reflect his /her self upon in the teachings .If you have the capacity to study other sutra , by all means go ahead

Six Patriach did not study Lotus Sutra in His Life , but it was Bhikkhu Fa da whose confusion and only venerating and recite the Lotus Sutra like a parrot that helps Hui Neng to with the "Diamond Sutra " verify Fa Da confusion .

The Platform sutra explanation is the justifications that Huineng never study other sutra in His life . Cause He is already realised and any sutra is "an accumulation of words and words prajna" which He doesnt need to attach to .

I have been learning and practising Buddhism for 18 years .So take heed of my advice ,study and discuss Buddhism in harmoniously with all other here alike for Law of Karma is never emotional and strike when you realise all you mentioned of Ven Chin Kung is partial truth ,its too late to repent already .

Namo Amitabha

With the Purest Whitelotus of the heart offering to zenist69,

Bohiruci

bohiruci SG

As the saying goes ,"rather to disturb the water of a thousand great river than to disturb the mind [break the faith] of a practitioner ."

this means that if a practitioner gives up Buddhism due to your partial truth and decided to go deluded again ,your karma is never light and can be quite heavy which will ripen in this lifetime

Possible outcome of this karma

1.You cant attain samadhi

2.Your Guru Teacher cannot guide you fruitfully ,for their mortal life is up

3.You encountered several obstacles to learnt the Buddhadharma -eg.Wartorn zone, fighting in war

4.You will be reviled and slander in public

5.Your attainment is diminished (as a result of fighting woeful relatives and manifestation of criticism of a sramana of Buddhadharma)

Please repent sincerely and continue harmonious discussion with others in the forum

Amitayus48 SG

If He is wai dao ,why would he bother to educate Buddhists with 《弥勒菩萨所问经》，又称《发起菩萨殊胜志乐经》，出自《大宝积经》卷第九十一发胜志乐会第二十五。A very good literature to read. Tai shan lao jun , Di zi gui are great literature as well to augment the understanding of rebirth and good people, beneficial to the social well beings, and serves to stable & calm your mind. An enlightening sutra to explore as well 《弥勒菩萨所问经》.

『爾時世尊讚諸菩薩。善哉善哉。善男子。善說如是覺悟之法。善發如是廣大誓願。能以如是決定之心。安住其中。一切業障皆悉消滅。無量善根亦當增長。』

佛告訴彌勒菩薩，假如菩薩想獲得清淨心，消除業障，應當學習本經這六十位菩薩所發的大願。世尊對彌勒菩薩說，實在就是對我們講，我們的業障與經上所說，的確沒有兩樣。我們應當多多讀誦這十三條，常常反省，將它變成自己的誓願。這些誓願歸納，就是四弘誓願之「煩惱無邊誓願斷」，這十三條說的皆是煩惱。

佛講這兩類過失，都是原則。事例太多了，不勝枚舉，希望我們能舉一反三，聞一知十，細細觀察自己到底錯在那裏。佛舉例說：

『爾時有二說法比丘。』當時，有二位出家人發心講經說法，『多諸親友名聞利養。』因為聽經的人多，也就是法眷屬多，擁護供養的人也多了。『汝於是人以慳嫉心。』你對於這二位法師起了嫉妒心，這是從慳貪而生的。『妄言誹謗行婬欲事。』你在外惡意的誹謗他，說他破戒，離間聞法的大眾。因為你的破壞，造謠生事，惡意誹謗，『是時法師親友眷屬。由汝離間說其重過。皆令疑惑不生信受。』這是將眾生聞法的機緣破壞了，罪過很重。

『彼諸眾生於是法師。無隨順心斷諸善根。』惡意破壞講經的道場與法師，令眾生對法師疑惑而不生信受。我們學佛要從此處細心體會，境界現前時，立刻憶念佛在本經的教誨。深知斷一個人的法緣與法身慧命，果報都墮在地獄，何況破壞許多人的法緣，如何得了！

『是故汝等由斯惡業。』佛說，因為造此惡業，其果報，『已於六十百千歲中。生阿鼻地獄。』六十百千是六百萬。因為他生嫉妒心，惡意破壞弘法的道場，已經在阿鼻地獄受了六百萬年的重刑。『餘業未盡。復於四十百千歲中。生等活地獄。』從阿鼻地獄再轉到等活地獄，罪報比較輕一點，受罪四百萬年。兩處合計一千萬年。

『餘業未盡。復於二十百千歲中。生黑繩地獄。』黑繩地獄的果報比等活地獄又要輕一等，受罪兩百萬年。這些地獄的狀況，諸位讀《地藏菩薩本願經》就很清楚。『餘業未盡。復於六十百千歲中。生燒熱地獄』。這是更輕一點的燒熱地獄，罪報六百萬年。別以為只造誹謗說法這麼一點罪，殊不知須在地獄輾轉受罪一千八百萬年。《大般若經》廣說謗法之罪，千佛出世，救之猶難。善現請說苦報，佛竟不說。若欲說其所受之苦，聞者當吐血而死。是知謗法之罪，非可輕也。

『從彼歿已還得為人。』受完地獄罪報，再得人身。『五百世中生盲無目。』「生盲」是生下來眼睛就瞎了。這是因過去世所造的罪業，還有五百世的餘報。讀了的確令人寒毛直豎，造作罪業太容易了，千萬不能以為自己不順心、不滿意，就任意障道，卻不曉得果報之可怕。『以殘業故。在在所生常多蒙鈍』。這就是愚癡、魯鈍，沒有智慧。「生盲無目」是身體上的缺陷，「蒙鈍」是心思昏暗，沒有智慧。

『忘失正念，障覆善根。福德微少，形容醜缺，人不喜見。』由是餘殃苦報，使一般人見了不會生歡喜心。又以『誹謗輕賤，戲弄欺嫌。』欺負他人、嫌棄他人。『常生邊地，貧窮下劣。喪失財寶，資生艱難。』以致出生在文化落後的地區，受不到好的教育。他的生活也很困苦。這些經文皆不難懂，很清楚的描繪他在人間的貧窮下賤，受盡種種苦難。『不為眾人尊重敬愛。』沒有人尊重他，沒有人喜歡他。

『從此歿已。』五百世身為貧賤之人，這是地獄的餘報；離開地獄後，還要受五百世的苦報。報盡了，『於後末世五百歲中法欲滅時。』末世五百歲中，是指現在這個時代，『還於邊地下劣家生。』這比前面情況好得太多了。『匱乏飢凍，為人誹謗。忘失正念，不修善法。』餘報的時間實在太長了！

『設欲修行，多諸留難。』偶爾遇到佛法，想發心修行，障緣特別多。皆因過去障礙很多人聞法，所以他這一世得此餘報。佛說他的餘報有五百世，可見他障礙人愈多，果報就愈嚴重。『雖暫發起智慧光明。以業障故尋復還沒。』這六十位菩薩，過去生中造種種罪業，所以雖發心出家修道，卻有許多障礙。『汝等從彼，五百歲後。是諸業障，爾乃消滅。』。可見罪障消滅需要很長的時間，歷受許多的苦難。菩薩有智慧，怎能不怕！眾生實在愚癡，竟敢造業！

菩薩乘人的特色是弘法利生，包括出家說法與在家說法。在家居士升座說法，出家人總是嫌棄他是在家白衣，往往就輕慢在家說法的菩薩。這是出家人最容易犯的過失，所以這段經文主要說明出家人。這些菩薩在俱留孫佛時都是出家人。這些道理與事實真相，現代人瞭解得太少了，縱然有人說明，大家也不相信、不能接受。總認為一出家就比在家人高，這觀念就是罪業，就是墮落。世尊當年示現成佛，就明白顯示，出家人成佛，在家人也成佛。

世尊示現的是出家佛，維摩居士示現的是在家佛。文殊、普賢示現的是出家等覺菩薩，而賢護示現的是在家等覺菩薩。出家與在家沒有分別，升座講經是代佛說法。不敬講經的人，就是不敬佛、不敬法，就是輕慢三寶，這是地獄罪業。因為我們的觀念錯誤，所以極容易犯戒。

If you are confused, just contemplate name of Namo Buddha Amitabha from heart and mind, out to the mouth and listen through ears and into the mind and heart. Merry go round this process - this is also the great advice from Master Venerable Kuang Qin.

Namo Buddha Amitabha

Zenist69 SG

testing 123

Zenist69 SG

Wai dao books should not be serve as foundation and entry to Buddhism. Because although certain wai dao teachings seems to be in align with Buddhism, neverthless, its not the same with Buddhism. There are differences between Confucius teachings, Daoism, and Buddhism. Therefore, to use wai dao books such as confucius book or daoism book as entry and foundation to Buddhism is wrong.

As for study only one sutra for ten years, thats wrong teaching too. 'cause some people can handle more than one sutra in ten years. Jing Kong Dharma Master didn't take them into consideration. His message is for all people. He didn't take into consideration, some people who are capable, could handle more sutra, and open up more wisdom for them. Ten years study only one sutra might cause people to lose interest in Buddhism. So it is a dangerous message of his.

There are some dangerous messages in Jing Kong Dharma Master teachings. Thats why I voice out my concern. I dun noe when would people 'step on those mine', 'tripwire' of his when they listen to his Dharma talk, or read his books and get their 法身慧命 hurt. The best way is to voice out my concern so that people might know, and make their own decision. Instead of me knowing the danger and yet go ahead and keep quiet.

AMTF

Dawnfirstlight SG

My view is, I listen to talks from different masters of different schools (Zen, Pureland etc.). I choose those that suits me. I remember the vow that we used to recite after chanting : 法门无量誓愿学.

Beginners will become mature Buddhists and they will know which direction to go base on their wisdom and 缘. To me, there is no right or wrong. If one is comfortable with one sutra, so be it. If not, the person will explore more on his own as time goes by. For me, I still prefer 法门无量誓愿学 but concentrate on reciting Amitabha.

Amitayus48 SG

testing 123 is also wai dao!
You were very dangerous to many people lest me and Jing Kong Dharma master 法身慧命 is always that permanently tranquility, and could not be hurt Once you are enlightened, these sutras are waste paper. Patriarch Chan Master did not even handle a single sutra. According to Jing Kong Dharma Master once said as well, exploring all others sutra is to help in the contemplation of one sutra, for low to high grade beings, so that they do not fall into contempt of own inherent sutra and also could possibly attained enlightenment as that of Patriarch Hui Neng. Super high grade like Patriarch Hui Neng is extremely scarce and possibly either extinction or hiding to avoid contempt by others. Anyway, my grade is super low so I choose Pureland Amitabha .

Namo Amitabha

With the Purest Whitelotus of the heart offering to zenist69.
With deepest empathy, I wish all attainment in this lifespan.

Amitayus48

sinweiy SG

ya. there's a point here.

i attained some and also heard countless of the talks, i find that the talk start from low level slowly to high level and he also see who were the audience listening (and he did clarified in one of the talk). some or most of the time there are new comers who do not have much knowledge of buddhism, sometime chinese/china people, sometime knowledge-based people, sometime scientific people, sometime western thinking people and many range of people. so he know that the talk have to range from this to that to suit those people. like different medicine for different illness. so new comer like chinese/china/eastern people maybe u bring DiZiGui is more useful and simplier then u use 十善业道经. as it's more close 亲切 to them. although he did advocate beginners to use also 十善业道经, not that he did not! must listen more to know. not use listen a few and fix on a view. moreover, i never heard/read in the past people studying confucius did any major evil stuff in history. i quick glance through the wiki article, nothing majority bad about the Philosophy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius

actually at my age i also never practice Di Zi Gui non 十善业道经 in detail, but i know an entire town did and an entrepreneur in china 胡小林 did. and he applied it to his company and it's doing very well. he do heater for winter season. last time his character not so good, now totally change a new good person. he become modest, treat his employee, friend and family very well, learn not to take advantage of client, yet his company's profit were very good even in bad economy. i believe the dharma protectors and bodhisattvas helped. all these are what Buddhism wanted to practice.

as for 10 years in Infinity Sutra, i think he himself when first study buddhism from Li Bin Nan. the teacher was very strict. He was only allow to study and read one sutra for 5 years. the rest cannot read. all the sutras he read before have to forget. he can only read after the 5 years period is due. after 5 years, the benefit was great, he was more calm and in peace. with that benefit, he told his teacher that he wanted to extend another 5 years! it's as if u formatted the harddisk/brain and start afresh. less affliction, less vexation. all these are what Buddhism wanted to practice. it's the result that count!

ps: i read and believe from Renchen人乘 buddhism (where AEN is from), late Ven Shen Kai, that Lao Tzu, founder of Taoism(not the folk-believe "taoists") was a Pratyekabuddha. that mean he's a Solitary sage enlightened to natural conditions,12因缘. in his previous life, he used to meet a Buddha taught to him, but was not able to gain enlightenment. so in the next life, he become an Pratyekabuddha. that's why the taodejing pretty similar with ch'an teachings. so somewhere previously the dharma was transmitted by a Buddha.

Dawnfirstlight SG

ya. there's a point here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius

Yeah agree with you. Suddenly I remember the saying 万法归一 (All dharmas are resolved into one). I think it means all dharmas are leading to the same path.

reborn76 SG

“太上老君感应篇” Inspiration of Tai Shang Lao Jun is indeed a non Buddhist text. I think Ven Chin Kung did ever acknowledge in some of his talks. In Buddhism, we normally classified non Buddhist teaching as 外道. It does not imply that it is bad. As it teaches the follower to observe 5 precepts and 10 good practices accompany by meditation. Ultimately, they will ascend to the form and formlessness heaven, believing that they have attained nirvana. However, Buddha has taught that heaven is still within the 6 path of transmigration. A sentient being may make it to the highest heaven but when the merits are exhausted he might fall into evil path. That’s why it is view as incomplete, 不圆满.

Nichiren, mentioned in The Opening Eye Writing

“Confucius declared that there were no worthies or sages in his country, but that in the land to the west there was one named Buddha who was a sage.⁹ This indicates that non-Buddhist texts should be regarded as a first step toward Buddhist doctrine. Confucius first taught propriety and music¹⁰ so that, when the Buddhist scriptures were brought to China, the concepts of the precepts, meditation, and wisdom¹¹ could be more readily grasped. He taught the ideals of ruler and minister so that the distinction between superior and subordinate could be made clear, he taught the ideal of parenthood so that the importance of filial piety could be appreciated, and he explained the ideal of the teacher so that people might learn to follow.

The Great Teacher Miao-lo says, “The propagation of Buddhism truly depends on this. First the teachings on propriety and music were set forth, and later the true way was introduced.”¹² T’ien-t’ai states, “In the Golden Light Sutra it is recorded that ‘all the good teachings that exist in the world derive from this sutra. To have a profound knowledge of this world is itself Buddhism.’ ”¹³ In Great Concentration and Insight we read, “I [the Buddha] have dispatched the Three Sages¹⁴ to educate the land of China.” In The Annotations on “Great Concentration and Insight” we read: “The Practice of the Pure Law Sutra states that Bodhisattva Moonlight appeared in that land under the name Yen Hui, Bodhisattva Bright Pure appeared there as Confucius, and Bodhisattva Kashyapa appeared as Lao Tzu. Since the sutra is speaking from the point of view of India, it refers to China as ‘that land.’ ”

Follow by

And yet the main point of these non-Buddhist teachings constitutes an important means of entry into Buddhism……….. The Nirvana Sutra remarks, “All of the non-Buddhist scriptures and writings in society are themselves Buddhist teachings, not non-Buddhist teachings.”

I think one need to understand the time and season. The non Buddhist teaching such as太上老君感应篇 was mean for a guide for the people at a certain season. However when we have the good fortune and affinity to know the complete Buddhist teaching then we need to wholeheartedly embrace and follow the later and respect the former.

Why did Ven Chin Kung encourage people to read it? Perhaps it was used as方便法门 to reach out to certain group of people in order to lead them into to Buddhist teaching.

Gassho

Namu Myoho Renge Kyo

Zenist69 SG

Weychin SG

Hi Zenist69, I follow with interest your posting, however, I am forever lost amongst the translation through google translate. Perhaps you would be kind as to elaborate your accusations against Reverend Jing Kung in english and highlight the articles pertaining to Rev. Jing Kung you find so offensive.

Perhaps you could elaborate from what position you are coming from(as a buddhist, "buddhist" or non buddhist) that you find Rev. Jing Kung so offensive, you were initially ever so eager to recommend Di Gui Zi for further reading, then suddenly you list it as inappropriate.

Also, are you of chinese descent and with extended family of some prevailing chinese values?

I'd like to ask did you cursorily or extensively read the article before posting or after?

Also do you understand that Buddhism is an inclusive belief? Your standpoint bears resemblance to a person of exclusive beliefs, with a certain set of dogmas. Whether that is your sincere point of view, I do not know.

Weychin SG

http://translate.google.com.sg/?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&tab=wT#

Dawnfirstlight SG

I suggest that if you don't like Master Chin Kong's talk, you can always listen to other master's talk but don't defame any Ven. I know many people take refuge after listening to his talks, so he is not an ordinary person. He is someone with great credits because many people take refuge because of him. So, don't discredit yourself by criticizing him. I agree that there are many bogus monks nowadays but Master Chin Kong is definitely not one of them.

Whether his talk is right or wrong, let the listeners decide. We Buddhists must stay united, don't defame any one of us unless that person is doing harm to Buddhism. I don't see people stay away from Buddhism after listening to his talks, instead many people take 3 refuges after listening to his talks.

Isis SG

I think it is good to refrain from anyhow slandering a teacher but it is okay to clear your doubts about him/her. In the process, there maybe something to learn from.

I think what venerable Chin Kong advise: To study a sutra for 10 year... can be good. Becos' there are people who like to read a lot of sutra and intellectualize alot but they don't spend the effort and time to realize the essence of just one sutra. It is said if one can realize the essence of teachings of one sutra, one will naturally understand the essence of all sutras.

I think it is also good to read other sutra too. We can gain knowledge from different sources but the most important thing is to realize the teaching.

I don't know what is Di Zi Gui but if i'm not wrong, i think it teaches about morality. In Buddhism, Morality is a basic foundation ( Well, sila ( morality ), samadhi and panna are also sign-post in our practice). In my opinion, people of our generation seems to have failed to emphasis on the importance of morailty. I think it could be good to emulate virtue from the ancient people - something that 'chinese' may find it easily to relate to. - it could be a skillful means by venerable to reach a certain group of people.

Just my few cents.

Cheers

sinweiy SG

forever lost amongst the translation through google translate. Perhaps you would be kind as to elaborate your accusations ....

the rough meaning were already repeatly and unyieldingly mentioned by Zenist69 over and over again.

oh, i sort of got it. think Zenist69 stumbled on the website while looking for Di Zi Gui stuff. then start to believe every word the website say without much considering.

actually i saw that website before like in 2001(?). another guy here was also doing the same thing. there are quite a few of such sites, i find the writer(s) pretty vulgar and think he know buddhism. i think MCK also know that there are people out there deframing him, maybe jealous of MCK, but MCK told us to forgive them! such a benevolent old master don't listen go and listen to these hooliganism/deluded saying. sigh...

old MCK is an old chinese person from china, who love to read olden chinese books, it's Natural that he bring out the 4books and 5scriptures 四书五经 and olden books. i like to listen to these old grandfather stories. perhaps not for youngsters, i guess. if Buddhism arrive in the west, they also bring Christian /cultural saying to their dharma understanding, like Ven Heng Sure and Ven Hyon Gak Sunim . MCK stayed in US before, hence it's natural to read the Christian's stuff so as to know more about western people. same like Dalai Lama. their original Buddhadharma understanding is still very much intact and unmovable.

i finished listen to MCK's recent talk. No. 234a.

ftp://new.pllc.cn/media/64K/02/039/

ftp://new.pllc.cn/media/64K/02/039/02-039-0234a.mp3

which i think can clarified the air. the quote say the Fundamental of Buddhism is 十善业道经; Daoism is 《太上感应篇》; Confucius is then Di Zi Gui. sometime the talk can be partial. where got, a sesson talk be absolutely perfect and complete. Buddha also use 49 years.

at the end of the day, believe or not believe to a deluded person is always a deluded believe. but when the delusion is clear, both believe and not believe are all real faith. when i first saw the accusations in the past, good that my faith still intact, not easily move. so easily move mean still have delusion.

a person wearing a deluded glasses will always see all things as deluded.

yea, they really don't understand

the saying ,"rather to disturb the water of a thousand great river than to disturb the mind [break the faith] of a practitioner ."

Zenist69 SG

suggested by a couple of us to delete.

Zenist69 SG

Weychin SG

I am only able to see accusations without proper linking, or sentences taken out of context. Bit and pieces here and there. However, again, translation is imperfect.

As long any teachings, upon completion, does not stray from the 3 dharma seals, 4 noble truths, and the eightfold path, is a proper teaching.

A good Buddhist teacher, in my opinion, embodies two virtues, namely wisdom and compassion. Just like Guan Yin, who hears cries of the world,with skilful means, will appear in different form.

Teachings will be made according to the needs of the listeners, in this case probably to people with inclinations towards" superstition" and "ignorance".

There is a story(can't remember which) , about children playing in burning building. in order to save them, promises of gifts attractive to the children are made, toget the children out for the burning house first.

Weychin SG

If one have not entered the door of of emptiness, and seen through it; everything will be seen with division.

However, if one seen the emptiness of things, the impermanence of form, then one will be able the wisdom and truth coming out of all things.

Singlemindedness, without division, is the path. With this stillness in mind, sight of nature of all the phenomena arise.