Nature, Value And Choice Of Religious Beliefs

last SG · 2010-04-06T00:56:28+00:00

Hi WisdomeyeYour question: Why did I convert to Buddhism? .....In my teenage years, I used to attend charismatic church with a circle like minded Christian p...

BanguIzai SG

Actually there are many brahmas. brahmas are devas that belong to the jhana planes.

The particular brahma that though he was God was Maha Brahma. I'll post something on it.

good thanks for the clarification. will read the article if posted.

Rooney9 SG

In Hinduism, the deity Brahma is known as the Creator, and is a member of a trinity of gods. The other two are Shiva the Destroyer and Vishnu the Preserver. Brahma is credited to be the source of the Vedas, hence you might have noticed him carrying a book representing the Vedas on one of his hands.

The Hindu Brahma and the Buddhist Brahma(s) are quite different.
In Buddhism though, the Brahma have been described as a class (or classes) of higher level gods, and as opposed to Hindu beliefs there are many individual Brahma gods. One of the Brahmas known as Brahma-Sahampati was credited to have persuaded the newly enlightened Buddha to expound his teachings to the world.

Rooney9 SG

Sorry, but sound like fairy tale.

you are not well versed in Buddhism, so dun blame you. to each his/her own.

this is not important. what is important is the four noble truths. do you see any light in the four noble truths?

Rooney9 SG

Baka Brahmā

Baka Brahmā (literally "crane-Brahmā") appears in the Majjhima Nikaya, where he is a deity who believes that his world is permanent and without decay (and that therefore he is immortal), and that therefore there are no higher worlds than his. The Buddha refutes Baka's claims, relating the concept of anitya or impermanence, but one of Baka's attendants (influenced by Māra) asserts that Baka is the Creator, that those who praise him will be rewarded, but those who deny his powers will be terribly punished. The Buddha identifies the real speaker as Māra, and states that he is free of his power.

Baka then states that it is futile to escape his domain (which he imagines to be universal), and points out that if the Buddha depends upon any of the things within Baka's cognizance, he will be within his realm, and Baka can act upon him as he sees fit. The Buddha responds that Baka does have this much power, but that there are realms which Baka knows nothing of, and that the Buddha's knowledge places him beyond Baka's power. Baka is at last convinced by a display of the Buddha's superior magical power and his ability to explain his present situation by reference to his past lives.

Baka was in a past life a human ascetic named Kesava; by various means he saved many people from destruction. For his meditative prowess he was born as a Bṛhatphala deva, and in successive rebirths gradually sank through the levels of the Rūpadhātu until he became an ordinary Brahmā.

On another occasion, Baka believes that no monk or ascetic can enter his world (through supramundane powers of manifestation), but the Buddha himself and several of his disciples visit him to prove him wrong.

Baka Brahma appears in the Bakabrahma-sutta and the Brahmanimantanika-sutta.

On one occasion, he encouraged a woman whose son was a bhikṣu not to make offerings to Brahmā, but instead to give alms to her son (who coincidentally was named Brahmadeva).

The Saṃyutta Nikāya contains verses said to have been spoken by Brahmā Sahampati, when he, together with Śakra, attended on the Buddha. He also attended upon the Buddha at his death, and verses attributed to him are included in the Mahāparinibbāna-sutta.

Of all the Brahmās he seems to have been the closest to the Buddha.

Commentators explained the epithet of "Ever-young" by saying that he had chosen the appearance of a very young man, whose hair was still tied up in the adolescent style of five knots.

The name Mahābrahmā, more of a title than a name, appears in several suttas. It properly belongs to the deity or deities of the third world of the Rūpadhātu, but may be used for even higher deities. A Mahābrahmā's titles are: "Brahmā, Great Brahmā, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be." According to the Brahmajāla Sutta (DN.1), a Mahābrahmā is a being from the Ābhāsvara worlds who falls into a lower world through exhaustion of his merits and is reborn alone in the Brahma-world; forgetting his former existence, he imagines himself to have come into existence without cause. Beings who have been reborn from his world into the human world and are able to gain a memory of it, believe him to be the creator of the world. In the Kevaddha-sutta (DN.11), a Mahābrahmā is unable to answer a philosophical question addressed to him by a monk, but conceals this fact from the devas of his retinue so as not to lose face in front of them. Addressing that monk privately, he tells him to ask his question of the Buddha.

An Eternal Now SG

From an old post, but I re-edited.

There is a god who thought he was Creator, known as Maha Brahma. Maha Brahma was known to be "Brahmā, Great Brahmā, the Conqueror, the Unconquered, the All-Seeing, All-Powerful, the Lord, the Maker and Creator, the Ruler, Appointer and Orderer, Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be".

In Buddhism, the Mahabrahma resides in the 1st Jhana plane, the first plane among the 8 jhanic planes. There were higher realms above where he lives that he was unaware of. Nevertheless all the devas below the 1st Jhana planes considered him as the Creator God. Buddha did not subscribe to the belief of such a notion that the Universe and its Inhabitants were the Creation of the Mahabrahma. He met with the Brahma, asked him questions which he could not answer. Eventually he has taken refuge in the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

The Buddha was also known to have said this,

If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!

When the previous universe was destroyed and this universe was formed, the Mahabrahma was first to be reborn. Other subsequent brahmas/devas were to be reborn. Maha Brahma mistaken that he created them by his intentions, whereby it is actually due to the karmas of the previous being that they are born in that realm. There is no creator in Buddhism, no first cause, only conditioned genesis, dependent origination, karma, causes and conditions.

2. 'Now there comes a time, brethren, when, sooner or later, after the lapse of a long long period, this world-system passes away. And when this happens beings have mostly been reborn in the World of Radiance, and there they dwell made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from themselves, traversing the air, continuing in glory; and thus they remain for a long long period of time.

3. Now there comes also a time, brethren, when, sooner or later, this world-system begins to re-evolve. When this happens the Palace of Brahmà appears, but it is empty. And some being or other, either because his span of years has passed or his merit is exhausted, falls from that World of Radiance, and comes to life in the Palace of Brahmà. And there also he lives made of mind, feeding on joy, radiating light from himself, traversing the air, continuing in glory; and thus does he remain for a long long period of time.

4. 'Now there arises in him, from his dwelling there so long alone, a dissatisfaction and a longing: "O! would that other beings might come to join me in this place! " And just then, either because their span of years had passed or their merit was exhausted, other beings fall from the World of Radiance, and appear in the Palace of Brahma as companions to him, and in all respects like him.

'And those beings themselves, too, think thus: "This must be Brahmà,, the Great Brahmà, the Supreme, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be. And we must have been created by him. And why? Because, as we see, it was he who was here first, and we came after that."

6. 'On this, brethren, the one who first came into existence there is of longer life, and more glorious, and more powerful than those who appeared after him. And it might well be, brethren, that some being on his falling from that state, should come hither. And having come hither he might go forth from the household life into the homeless state. And having thus become a recluse he, by reason of ardour of exertion of application of earnestness of careful thought, reaches up to such rapture of heart that, rapt in heart, he calls to mind his last dwelling-place, but not the previous ones. He says to himself: "That illustrious Brahmà, the Great Brahmà, the Supreme One, the Mighty, the All-seeing, the Ruler, the Lord of all, the Maker, the Creator, the Chief of all, appointing to each his place, the Ancient of days, the Father of all that are and are to be, he by whom we were created, he is stedfast immutable eternal, of a nature that knows no change, and he will remain so forever and ever. But we who were created by him have come hither as being impermanent mutable limited in duration of life.

'This, brethren, is the first state of things on account of which, starting out from which, some recluses and Brahmans, being Eternalists as to some things, and Non-eternalists as to others, maintain that the soul and the world are partly eternal and partly not.

DN 1 2:5

In reality, the universe works by the law of Karma and he has no control over the system of karma.

The Venerable Ledi Sayadaw, a highly renowned Myanmar scholar-monk of the first part of this century, gave a careful analysis of the powers of Maha Brahma in his Niyama Dipani (MB pp. 138-39). He states that although Maha Brahma can perform all sorts of transformations, he cannot actually create independent creatures, change the kammic law of cause and effect, or keep anyone from growing old or dying. Brahma can use his special powers to transport a man to the brahma plane for a short visit, but he cannot ensure that someone will be reborn there.

from http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol5no3f.htm:

When he came to know about Sakyamuni Buddha in the human world who speaks of the universal truth, he was curious and arrived at the human world with the intention to debate with the Buddha. The Buddha, with his ability to know another's mind, knew his intention and asked, "You claim to be the creator of the human race and all things in the universe, is this a fact?"

The king replied, "Yes, it is."

Buddha continued to question him, "Since you created life, why did you also create death? Is death created by you too?"

The king paused for while, and thinking that everyone loves life and nobody welcomes death, he replied, "I did not create death."

Buddha asked him again, "All human beings experience sickness, did you create sickness also?" The king knew that nobody likes to be ill, and he replied, "I did not create illness."

Buddha asked many questions in succession, but the king denied that he created them. Eventually, he admitted that he did not create the universe and all things in it, and certainly not the human race. The king of heavens was full of regrets and he felt ashamed. Finally, he accepted Buddha as his teacher and invited Him to spread the Dharma in the heavens.

http://www.mahindarama.com/e-library/whybuddhism2.html

"To those who talked about the first cause of this world, the Buddha responded by saying that it is impossible to find a first cause since everything is changing, interdependent and conditioned by other things. Something that acts as the cause in the present may become the effect in the future. Later that same effect may again become the cause. Such phenomenon continues ad infinitum. It is called the universal law of Anicca or impermanency.

----------------------

In Visuddhimagga XIX:

Everywhere, in all the realms of existence, the noble disciple
sees only mental and corporeal phenomena kept going through the
concatenation of causes and effects. No producer of the
volitional act or kamma does he see apart from the kamma, no
recipient of the kamma-result apart from the result. And he is
well aware that wise men are using merely conventional language,
when, with regard to a kammical act, they speak of a doer, or
with regard to a kamma-result, they speak of the recipient of the
result.

No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits;
Empty phenomena roll on:
This only is the correct view.

And while the deeds and their results
Roll on and on, conditioned all,
There is no first beginning found,
Just as it is with seed and tree. ...

No god, no Brahma, can be called
The maker of this wheel of life:
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all.

Dondontan SG

you are not well versed in Buddhism, so dun blame you. to each his/her own.

this is not important. what is important is the four noble truths. do you see any light in the four noble truths?

Still learning about buddhism

BanguIzai SG

Still learning about buddhism

good articles here

good to learn

An Eternal Now SG

Just edited my previous post.

Rooney9 SG

Setting in Motion the Wheel of Truth
(Dhammacakkappavattana-Sutta)(1)
(The First Discourse of the Buddha)

(For seven weeks immediately following the enlightenment, the Buddha spent his time in lonely retreat. At the close of this period he decided to proclaim the doctrine (Dhamma), he had realized, to those five ascetics who were once struggling with him for enlightenment. Knowing that they were living at Isipatana (modern Sarnath), still steeped in the unmeaning rigours of extreme asceticism, the master left Gaya, where he attained enlightenment, for distant Varanasi, India's holy city. There at the Deer Park he rejoined them.)

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Seers) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the group of five monks (Bhikkhus):

'Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced by one who has gone forth from the household life. (What are the two?) There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy and unprofitable.

Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (The Perfect One) (2) has realized the Middle Path; it gives vision, gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment and to Nibbana. And what is that Middle Path realized by the Tathagata….? It is the Noble Eightfold path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. This is the Middle Path realized by the Tathagata which gives vision, which gives knowledge, and leads to calm, to insight, to enlightenment, and to Nibbana.

The Noble Truth of Suffering (Dukkha), monks, is this: Birth is suffering, ageing is suffering, sickness is suffering, death is suffering, association with the unpleasant is suffering, dissociation from the pleasant is suffering, not to receive what one desires is suffering - in brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

The Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering is this: It is this craving (thirst) which produces re-becoming (rebirth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding fresh delight now here, and now there, namely craving for sense pleasure, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation).

The Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it.

The Noble Truth of the Path Leading to the Cessation of Suffering is this: It is the Noble Eightfold Path, and nothing else, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration. (3)

"This is the Noble Truth of Suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This suffering, as a noble truth, should be fully realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This suffering, as a noble truth has been fully realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.

"This is the Noble Truth of the Origin (cause) of Suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Origin of Suffering as a noble truth should be eradicated": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Origin of suffering as a noble truth has been eradicated": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.

"This is the Noble Truth of the Cessation of Suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, should be realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Cessation of suffering, as a noble truth has been realized": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.

"This is the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Path leading to the cessation of suffering, as a noble truth, should be developed": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before. "This Path leading to the cessation of suffering, as a noble truth has been developed": such was the vision, the knowledge, the wisdom, the science, the light that arose in me concerning things not heard before.

As long as my knowledge of seeing things as they really are, was not quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths (4), I did not claim to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment, in this world with its gods, with its Maras and Brahmas, in this generation with its recluses and brahmanas, with its Devas and humans. But when my knowledge of seeing things as they really are was quite clear in these three aspects, in these twelve ways, concerning the Four Noble Truths, then I claimed to have realized the matchless, supreme Enlightenment in this world with its gods, with its Maras and Brahmas, in this generation with its recluses and brahmanas, with its Devas and humans. And a vision of insight arose in me thus: "Unshakable is the deliverance of my heart. This is the last birth. Now there is no more re-becoming (rebirth)."

This the Blessed One said. The group of five monks was glad, and they rejoiced at the words of the Blessed One.

When this discourse was thus expounded there arose in the Venerable Kondanna the passion-free, stainless vision of Truth (dhamma-cakkhu; in other words, he attained sotapatti, the first stage of sanctity, and realized: 'whatever has the nature of arising, has the nature of ceasing.'

Now when the Blessed One set in motion the Wheel of Truth, the Bhummattha devas (the earth deities) proclaimed: 'The Matchless Wheel of Truth that cannot be set in motion by recluse, brahmana, deva, Mara, Brahma, or any one in the world, is set in motion by the Blessed One in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi.'

Hearing these words of the earth deities, all the Catummaharajika devas proclaimed: 'The Matchless Wheel of Truth that cannot be set in motion by recluse, brahmana, deva, Mara, Brahma, or any one in the world, is set in motion by the Blessed One in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi.' These words were heard in the upper deva realms, and from Catummaharajika it was proclaimed in Tavatimsa... Yama... Tusita... Nimmanarati... Paranimmita-vasavatti... and the Brahmas of Brahma Parisajja... Brahma Purohita... Maha Brahma... Parittabha... Appamanabha... Abhassara... Parittasubha... Appa mana subha... Subhakinna... Vehapphala... Aviha... Atappa... Sudassa... Sudassi... and in Akanittha: 'The Matchless Wheel of Truth that cannot be set in motion by recluse, brahmana, deva, Mara, Brahma, or any one in the world, is set in motion by the Blessed One in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi.'

Thus at that very moment, at that instant, the cry (that the Wheel of Truth is set in motion) spread as far as Brahma realm, the system of ten thousand worlds trembled and quaked and shook. A boundless sublime radiance surpassing the effulgence (power) of devas appeared in the world.

Then the Blessed One uttered this paean of joy: 'Verily Kondanna has realized; verily Kondanna has realized (the Four Noble Truths).' Thus it was that the Venerable Kondanna received the name, 'Anna Kondanna' - Kondanna who realizes.

(With the proclamation of the Dhamma, for the first time, and with the conversion of the five ascetics, the Deer Park at Isipatana became the birth place of the Buddha's Dispensation (Buddha-sasana), and the Sangha, the community of monks, the ordained disciples.

Emperor Asoka, 281 years after the event, came on pilgrimage to this holy spot and caused a series of monuments and a commemorative pillar with the lion capital to be erected. This capital with its four magnificent lions upholding the 'Dharma Cakra', the 'Wheel of Dharma', now stands in the museum of Sarnath, and is today the official crest of India. The 'Dharma-Cakra' festival is still maintained in Sri Lanka.

Jawaharlal Nehru, the late prime Minister of India, writes: 'At Sarnath near Benares, I would almost see the Buddha preaching his first discourse, and some of his recorded words would come like a distant echo to me through two-thousand five hundred years. Asoka's pillars of stone with their inscriptions would speak to me in their magnificent language and tell me of a man who, though an emperor, was greater than any king or emperor.' The Discovery of India (The Signet Press, Calcutta), p. 44.

An Eternal Now SG

BTW I would like to add regarding Brahma.. that I have a friend who is a Dzogchen practitioner a.k.a Vajrahridaya whose past life is actually a Brahma.

I posted an article by him before in our forum which Thusness thinks is very well written: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/376891

He described being a vast and powerful God and time was entirely different from the way we as humans consider it. It felt very ancient, from a human remembering the experience point of view. He also, at that point though saw that there are infinite Brahmas and infinite universes.

Because of his past life as a Brahma, he had a tendency for God like pride and certain level experiences that reify a Godhead, or a center of the universe type of thing, it's blissful, but he know it's not the realization of Buddhahood.

He was into Hinduism previously and was able to enter very subtle states of samadhi and cosmic consciousness, but after recognising Rigpa and the truth of dependent origination through conversation with Buddhist teacher Loppon Namdrol and meeting his guru Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, he converted to Buddhism.

longchen SG

BTW I would like to add regarding Brahma.. that I have a friend who is a Dzogchen practitioner a.k.a Vajrahridaya whose past life is actually a Brahma.

I posted an article by him before in our forum which Thusness thinks is very well written: http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/376891

I also have similar meditative experiences.

My own opinion is that this may correspond to a higher jhana plane. In newage term (for newage guys reading this forum..), this may correspond to roughly the 6th density, of which the universe consist of roughly 8 layers of densities/dimension. From this plane, it is also possible to 'see' the purpose of reincarnation as the present physical form. Time is different from that plane as compared to this physical one is because that plane has access to all incarnations simultaneously, but the manifestation (of its intentions) must stepdown onto the lower planes.

Beyond the 6th density, there is no mental formation to talk about or describe, in human terms.

My understanding is that everybody will experience similar thing if they access a similar jhana plane. This plane although very fine by comparision to gross mental formation, can have a subtle sense-of-self, if its Beingness is not understood.

Regards and, of course, don't take these words literally...

Dawnfirstlight SG

Buddha statues are made by human hands like a claypot.

Why bow down the the creation we made out of our hands?

We made it and we bow down to our creation?

Wads the difference between bowing down to a buddha and a claypot both r lifeless and handmade.

Y dont bow down to TV ?

weather u or worship or respect a statue . does a statues deserve worship or respect ?

does not the sculptor deserves mroe worship or respect ? He made it. Worship him . or respect him .haha LOL.

I was dumb to bow down to it lastime but I wont do it anymore.

If you do not know why we bow to Buddha, please do not comment. I know I bow to Buddha out of respect and remind me of his teachings.

Are you trying to say that the statue of Jesus and the cross in churches are made by God ? Think before you talk or you will look like a fool. Didn't you see the statue of Jesus or images of Jesus right in front of you when you pray in churches ? May be you can ask your church to remove it if you don't like the sight of statue as you find them stupid.

xXIron_fistXx SG

omg the talk is still on.

xXIron_fistXx SG

forum moderator pls lock it .

imagine when it hits ten pages.

Sorry for the inconvinience caused.

xXIron_fistXx SG

Sorry I admit i hate buddhism stuff But I promised i wont slander buddhism on this forum.

I cannot say I like buddhism because I would be lying.

But i promised I will stop posting slandering speech here.

PLs lock this thread.

xXIron_fistXx SG

If you do not know why we bow to Buddha, please do not comment. I know I bow to Buddha out of respect and remind me of his teachings.

I apologise for my speech.

Dawnfirstlight SG

I apologise for my speech.

You are forgiven because you are being brainwashed by pastor like Rony Tan. Don't just listen to what is being said, observe, find out and think logically. To me, I also don't like the idea of salvation by grace and having both good and bad people in heaven, it makes no difference from earth. It does not sound logical to me as well.

How to be happy if you are living in a palace with evil people around. Listen to Buddha, anybody can be born in heaven, JUST BE GOOD. To be born in heaven is not the ultimate aim of Buddhists.

An Eternal Now SG

I also have similar meditative experiences.

Beyond the 6th density, there is no mental formation to talk about or describe, in human terms.

Regards and, of course, don't take these words literally...

I see.. interesting, thanks.

An Eternal Now SG

How to be happy if you are living in a palace with evil people around. Listen to Buddha, anybody can be born in heaven, JUST BE GOOD. To be born in heaven is not the ultimate aim of Buddhists.

Well said...

I won't close the topic just because of this issue, but I'm sure Buddhists won't make a big fuss out of it.

wisdomeye SG

remarking on symbols, Buddha statues has some kind of positive energy engendered in them due to the faith and sacredness of the worshippers... although it is said that Buddha statues are reminders of our innate Buddha nature and so on... but it could also be said that the statues themselves are also deep sources of blessings and can be indeed be considered inseparable from the Buddhas themselves.

In times of pure perception and faith, statues arise spontaneously out of rocks and so on... and statues come alive and give advice. This is a very frequent occurence in India / Tibet.

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