Nondual Thinking and the Mahayana Deconstruction of Time

An Eternal Now SG · 2007-04-17T17:23:14+00:00

Two days ago Thusness recommended me to read David R Loy's articles and books... and he is very impressed by this author's insights into non-duality. He's bo...

An Eternal Now SG

I just finished Mahayana Deconstruction of Time.. so far he's the best in explaining the paradox of time and how time and objects are non-dual.. that we and everything are really time itself... great stuff.

Also see a very early thread in this forum that was created by Longchen in 2004: The Eternal Now and Time doesn't exist

Do read the entire article, also very well written: http://www.buddhistinformation.com/buddhism_and_the_illusion_of_time.htm

Thusness SG

Ai Yooh...

Dont get the idea that I know anything about self liberating aspect of our nature. What I meant is we have underestimated the implications and impacts of the sense of Self can have on the quality of non-dual experience. There is no division in non duality, there is only the 'sense of self' that prevents one from fully experiencing our nature.

Forms are merely that thingness and that thingness is tightly bonded by propensities. It is these propensities that create and give the solidness and boundaries but in reality, it is empty. We mistaken these thingness as real, material as real and not know that what is real is empty, unborn, uncreated, without a center and non local. This is taking the illusionary as real. It is easy to understand what that is being said in terms of knowledge, but to understand dissolution of thingness as a bond from intuitive experience is entirely different. The quality of a non-dual experience will be greatly enhanced when:

1. That thingness of Self as background, as container is eliminated. There is only one, not two. Thoughts and perceptions continue to hover but the background is gone.

2. That thingness of Body is eliminated. Thoughts and perceptions reduced tremendously. The background is clearly gone, the body is also gone. The thingness in the inmost consciousness is greatly loosen. This is the experience of crystal transparency without a center, not only without a who, there is also no where. There is crystal clarity, realness in phenomenal manifestation.

3. That thingness as subtle personalities of beginingless past is eliminated.

There can be no compromised for the dissolution on 'the sense of self'.

It is good to learn something about self-liberating aspect of our nature from this David Loy article and he did outline some important points. However we should not be misled to think that we have understood the gist of self-liberation. I have many times emphasized that self-liberating aspect of our nature is easily and mostly misunderstood. A person who cannot feel the strength of these bonds cannot be said to know what consciousness is all about from a practitioner point of view, much less self-liberation. I must emphasize that if one has not eliminated the bond level 1 and 2, there is no way he can understand what self-liberation is all about. After bond level 1 and 2 are stabilized, non-locality aspects of our nature will somehow manifest. It is also due to the manifestation of these non-local qualities of our nature that help clear some very subtle propensities, without these non-local experiences, breaking and loosening these propensities can be difficult.

Normally self-liberated aspect of our nature is disclosed by fully enlightened sages as they really seen the truth of their nature, unborn, uncreated and lucidly clear. There are people of great caliber, great bodhisattvas taking birth will little propensities and bonds, cream of the crops among the enlightened, these people after the initial non-dual experience due their lack of attachments are able to attained fearless Samadhi and transformed consciousness into wisdom immediately. For propensities are the results of subtle attachments and without attachments, all is realized at once. But it is not for everyone. So without attachments, we are already liberated!

But for normal lays like us, we cannot truly understand self liberating aspect of our nature when we are still slave to our own attachments and preys of our own karmic propensities. We cant even move one step away from the 3 bonds stated above that create the sense of self. Delicate time to practice hard; have enough quality time to experience the non-duality during meditation (walking, standing or sitting), otherwise it would be just empty talks.

An Eternal Now SG

I see... thanks a lot for your elaborated reply Smile

I agree meditation practise is really quite important and I am lacking practise in that... Razz

An Eternal Now SG

In the light of Wisdom, when sentient thoughts arise, neither follow or seek them (i.e 'linking them up' as David said) nor reject them.. that thought self-liberates Smile As David said -- The term "thoughtlessness" would seem to recommend a mind free from any thoughts, but Hui Neng denies this: rather, "thoughtlessness" is the function of a mind free from any attachment. The implication is that for someone who is liberated thoughts still arise, but there is no clinging to them when they do. Why the term "thoughtlessness" can be used to characterize such a state of mind will become clear in a moment. But the question that arises first is in what way one can ever be attached to thoughts if, as the Siksasamuccaya says, a thought has no staying power, that like lightning it breaks up in a moment and disappears. Of course like what Thusness just said before, bonds has to be eliminated which is why meditational practices are necessary even though my teachers always stress practise should be both in Dong (i.e living daily lives) and Jing (i.e sitting), quality time to practise the dharma is needed... for instance my taiwanese and local teacher stress importance of daily meditation (for newcomers we may not stress this but those who receives 'dharma transmissions' are asked to do meditation) sometimes get his students to sit 1-2 hours with him. Personally he sits 6 hours a day if I'm not wrong... as he has retired and move to his dharma center to live alone and has more time to himself.

I also posted this in http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=196831&page=15..

Was reading this article by David Loy... and this part really 'rings a bell' for me... because my Taiwanese Teacher often say that the essence of Buddhism is not about getting rid of delusion and seeking the truth (qu4 wang4 qiu2 zhen1)... that would still be delusive.. But the essence is to see everything (known as wisdom), even ignorance and thoughts as self-arising and self-liberating spontaneously.. Not to grasp and neither to reject anything, and not to seek anything else... what is manifesting is enough, itself is the activities of our Buddha Nature/the Dharmadhatu and is pure as it is, and like Avatamsaka Sutra said -- Mind, Buddha and Sentient Beings are not three different things! (they are all equal in essence!)

Anyway here is it: The Path of No-path: Sankara and Dogen on the Paradox of Practice

So the Self cannot be known, and the Way is not a matter of knowing or not knowing. In accordance with its affirmation of "empty'' form, Mahayana does not accept the nirguna state of pure formlessness. Some Ch'an masters, such as Te-shan (who burned his commentaries on the Diamond Sutra), are traditionally criticized for being "too empty," for emphasizing the emptiness of form over the form of emptiness. So quietism is not encouraged. But when we look for another alternative, a "middle way" between these extremes, we discover another paradox: if the Way is neither a matter of knowing something, nor blankly dwelling in not-knowing-anything, then there is no dualism between delusion and enlightenment. Commenting on Hsuan-sha's statement that "all the universe is one bright jewel," Dogen concludes:

Even if there is perplexed or troubled thinking, it is not apart from the bright jewel. It is not a deed or thought produced by something that is not the bright jewel. Therefore, both coming and going in the Black Mountain's Cave of Demons [that is, in delusions] are themselves nothing but the one bright jewel. [44]

Of course, insofar as everything is the complete manifestation of Buddhanature, this must be the case, but the point is more subtle that that. It is clearer in Yung-Chia's Song of Enlightenment, which begins:

Have you not seen a man of Tao at his ease
In his non-active (wu-wei) and beyond learning states
Who neither suppresses thoughts nor seeks the real? To him
The real nature of ignorance is Buddhata;
And the non-existent body of illusion is Dharmakaya. [45]

To reject delusion and accept the truth is just another form of delusion. Yung-Chia says later, for such discrimination between rejecting and accepting is still dualistic; "one who practices in this way mistakes a thief for his own son." The Way is not a matter of escaping delusion, because there is nowhere to escape except to an equally delusive quietism. It is rather a matter of liberating delusion, as Dogen might say. The difference is that with our usual delusion there is the anxious compulsion to grasp something, a desire which is just as problematic whether it is a craving for sense objects or the spiritual need To Know The Truth. What distinguishes "liberated" delusion is the utter freedom of the mind to "dance" from one sunya thing to another, from one set of concepts to a different and perhaps contradictory set. The difference is not necessarily in the concepts themselves -- they may be the same -- but how effortlessly the mind is able to play with them without getting stuck. To the extent that the mind thinks there is an objectifiable Truth (whether already grasped or not yet), or to the extent that it thinks dwelling in blankness-of-mind is the Truth, this freedom is not realized: the mind trips over itself, sticks at this, jumps to that, and does not want to let go because it still understands its fundamental task as finding and dwelling in a secure "home" for itself.

Should your mind wander away, do not follow it, whereupon your wandering mind will stop wandering of its own accord. Should your mind desire to linger somewhere, do not follow it and do not dwell there, whereupon your mind's questing for a dwelling-place will cease of its own accord. Thereby, you will come to possess a non-dwelling mind -- a mind which remains in the state of non-dwelling. If you are fully aware in yourself of a non-dwelling mind, you will discover that there is just the fact of dwelling, with nothing to dwell upon or not to dwell upon. This full awareness in yourself of a mind dwelling upon nothing is known as having a clear perception of your own mind or, in other words. as having a clear perception of your own nature. A mind which dwells upon nothing is the Buddha-Mind, the mind of one already delivered, Bodhi-Mind, Uncreate Mind ... you will have attained to understanding from within yourself -- an understanding stemming from a mind that abides nowhere, by which we mean a mind free from delusion and reality alike. (Hui Hai) [46]

Another topic I made about the fault of Sixth Patriarch Hui Neng's original fault of leaning to voidness.. Bodhi Tree & Bright Mirror (Part 2)

p.s. anyway Thusness thinks David R. Loy is so good at he's going to collect all his books...

An Eternal Now SG

Firewood Does Not Turn into Ashes

An Interview with Toni Packer by Craig Hamilton

"Firewood Does Not Turn into Ashes" first appeared in What Is enlightenment? magazine, issue 23, Spring/Summer 2003, as part of the article "Enlightenment at the Speed of Life."

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Craig Hamilton: As humanity heads into the third millennium, the world is changing in ways that would have seemed like good science fiction only decades ago. From biotechnology to nanotechnology, from the information revolution to the deterioration of the biosphere, from globalization to global warming, life in the twenty-first century is becoming increasingly complex, chaotic, and unpredictable. The challenge of keeping up with the speed of life has never been greater, and according to most futurists, we haven't seen the half of it. They tell us that the rate of change itself is increasing exponentially, and shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. This recognition has led many of the most forward-looking thinkers of our time to the conclusion that in order to meet the increasing demands of life in our evolving world, new capacities are going to be required of all of us - not the least of which will be an unprecedented willingness to change and keep changing in order to respond to new life conditions as they emerge.

You are a teacher of what has traditionally been called "enlightenment" - the life-transforming realization of our ultimate nature, which is widely considered to be not only the summit of all spiritual seeking but the greatest and final aim of human existence. This profound spiritual awakening has often been described as the realization of the changeless, the timeless, the unborn, the uncreated - the absolute reality that remains forever untouched by anything that happens in the world of time, evolution, and becoming. What I would like to ask you is this: What does the discovery of this timeless dimension of being have to tell us about how to respond to the challenges of a world in which time itself seems to be accelerating out of control? How can the realization of the changeless help us to navigate a future in which constant change may well be the only constant?

Toni Packer: Right now as we are sitting here, where are we? Are we in this timeless presence without division, without "you" and "me"? Is this from where we're going to look and talk? Or are we engaged in this accelerating, changing world? Because it makes a big difference whether we speak and look and ask and listen from the timeless or from involvement in the changing, in time, which includes wanting things to change, wanting to change ourselves - which is all part of the changing relative world the Easterners speak of. This, to me, is essential. Because the timeless presence - emptiness, if you will, or wholeness - that does not do anything. That does not operate in the usual way that we are accustomed to. It just beholds, observes, listens, understands, realizes. Zen Master Dogen once said, "Firewood does not turn into ashes." When I heard that the first time, I didn't know what he was talking about because obviously firewood turns into ashes. I mean, we've all experienced it. So the next time I was at a campfire, I watched and observed, and the time quality fell away. It was just being there, and there was no change from fire to ashes; it was just what was: fire, and then sometimes it collapses, and there are some sparks, and it seems to turn black. But when you're really there, timelessly, it is not a process of time that is observed but presence: eternal, everlasting, without time.

If you are established in this timeless presence, if you are in touch with it , you don't have to navigate and negotiate. You're just here, and a response will come out of this intelligent or wise presence. One's response will be intelligent. That presence does not even perceive change as change. That's already an evaluation of what's going on. it just responds to what is here. If there is this timeless quality in one's perception, then it's not that one sees that something is changing from this to that. One simply sees what is and responds.

There cannot be any prescription for how to respond to what is going on in the world, but we are responding every moment, from moment to moment. So is there some awareness of how we're responding, what is going on in ourselves, in the world, in each other? Is there some clarity about it so that the response is appropriate?

You see, it's not that we have to become something different or go to the other shore. We are here. We have to wake up to that fact, and then there is a different response to what we call the relative world. It's seen through for what it is. It's like when you watch a politician on television - can't you see through the face, see what the person is all about? No words are needed to realize it. If you're taking part in it - if you're taking this position or that - then you project onto the other. But the beauty is that when there's no projection, then things and people appear the way they are, unvarnished.

From this vast, unprejudiced, and nonpreferential perspective, from this presence, the relative world spins and spins according to the unfathomable patterns. But this Earth is part of a huge, vast cosmos of stars exploding, and stars newly created out of hot gases. So what are we trying to do? To change this? Can we? Or is it possible just to behold wisely what goes on here and see whether it will not go out of control? the changes come and go like the tide. If war doesn't break out here, it breaks out someplace else. We haven't really changed fundamentally. But let me make it clear, I'm not pessimistic at all. On the contrary, I'm full of serenity and good cheer - not about events in the world that you're talking about as running out of control, but about this potential for a human being to wake up to what we are, changelessly.

~ Toni Packer, "The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing"

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