hokkien in singapore

last SG · 2009-04-20T09:11:49+00:00

Mostly by Eng Choon to used that word kang. Not sure.No no, Eng choon don't speak that. Mum's root is in eng choon, eng choon people don't speak that. ...

FireIce SG

bo mm tio!

Ap0cAlySm SG

fair enough, but as a student preparing for a university education my choices are limited and so learning a dialect is simply a plausible path and a starting stone for me.

TYING SG

start a topic and get everyone to post in hokkien, maybe you can learn from there!?

Bangulzai SG

start a topic and get everyone to post in hokkien, maybe you can learn from there!?

dangerous

coz most people have not learnt Internation Phonetic Alphabet

everyone will come up with their own transciption

it will confuse him in the end

Meat Pao SG

Even learning it in any serious/ in depth manner is dangerous, because it can confuse him.

Actually, if someone is not a linguist, it is not neccessary to study it seriously.

At the most, just study the conversational level only, that should be enough.

And since the underlying purpose is to find one's root, I do not think learning Hokkien up to a high level is the answer, after all.

Bangulzai SG

Even learning it in any serious/ in depth manner is dangerous, because it can confuse him.

Actually, if someone is not a linguist, it is not neccessary to study it seriously.

At the most, just study the conversational level only, that should be enough.

And since the underlying purpose is to find one's root, I do not think learning Hokkien up to a high level is the answer, after all.

don't worry

Ap0cAlySm is a clever boy

he won't be confused

just that if everyone uses the International Phonetic Alphabet responsibly it can help him truly. if everyone is replying to the thread with fervent and enthusiasm but without some essence, the thread-method learning is gonna confuse him who's transcription is more correct or who's gone wrong

else it just delays his learning process that's all

you have to refer to my previous post to speak in that context

Ap0cAlySm SG

that is without a doubt true... i have been to several 'learn hokkien' sites with absolutely no standard basis in their transcriptions during my endeavours of self-learning and found them completely impossible to comprehend without my mom on standby to try and interpret for me with her limited and mostly forgotten knowledge of hokkien spoken with her primary school mates, however i have managed to chance upon some extremely useful chinese-taiwanese online dictionary sites with proper 'pinyin' and even sound players pronouncing every character. unsurprisingly though, another chinese-taiwanese online dictionaries used different 'pinyin' -.- but thankfully, same pronounciations so it didnt really matter that much. however the fact that it was completely in 繁體字 and TAIWANESE didnt help me learn local singaporean hokkien. Thus far i am proficient in 'formal' hokkien per say but completely clueless on local hokkien slangs e.t.c with the exception of the common ones like siam, diam, bo pien, vulgarities e.t.c.

youyayu SG

add me in msn.. i shall teach you..

the 1st ever language i could speak is hokkien

Ap0cAlySm SG

an example of my sadness is that i know that kopi is coffee, but i cant distinct kopi-O,C,siu dai e.t.c... i do understand that these are basic local terms used in the kopitiam, but hey, imagine a big boy who SHOULD have been exposed to these but had the misfortune not to, going up to someone and asking them that... all im inviting for myself is sniggers and stares... its not that i want to drink kopi in the kopitiam or anything but its these little things that makes one feel Singaporean, that and Singlish of course which nobody isnt fluent in... as opposed to westernisation ebbing of our culture, something i experience first-hand everyday.

Ap0cAlySm SG

this thread has gone on for quite awhile and its rather apparent that, no thanks to LKY, it is conclusively impossible for a youth enculturated in an english upbringing, no thanks to LKY, to accept and embrace his roots. its really disheartening how dialects are so poorly regarded and have degenerated to the point where i cant even find a decent place to learn...

Bangulzai SG

to learn to transcribe Hokkien is something which needs learning, patience, training, time, effort, interest

transcribing using IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) or the popular Taiwanese POJ (Pe̍h-ōe-jī) so far are the best and most accurate

an example of what is transcribe using IPA without indication of the 7-tones of Hokkien is shown here: http://sgforums.com/forums/2956/topics/352742

IPA and POJ can capture the unique vowels of Hokkien. They can represent the 7 tones and it's tone-sandhi with clarity.

mancha SG

I don't think you can learn a language like you are learning some science or technical subject.

My parents can speak Malay, and that by interaction with Malays and Indians in the market. Not by any lesson or cassette tape.

You want to learn Hokkien, you must assimilate yourself into the Hokkien speaking world. Kopi tiams and markets would be the best place.

Bo ah, le anchua mah si buay kong ay.

Ap0cAlySm SG

hokkien has 7 tones..!?!? this is new to me. im familiar with the taiwanese romanization of the language but i dun really know what IPA is?? for me its too late to integrate into the hokkien speaking world lol... i mean my entire social circle are all english-ed people, i dun even know where to start... I do have a neighbour from taiwan but as i have stressed before, dosen't help... that is why my only recourse is to have a teaching professional in the language to teach.

Bangulzai SG

in standard Xiamen (Amoy) variety

names of the 7 tones for isolated characters <> contour in the 5-degree scale:

阴平 <> 44

阳平 <> 24

阴上 <> 53

阴去 <> 21

阳去 <> 22

阴入 <> 32 (underlined means clipped tone, or 入声)

阳入 <> 4 (underlined means clipped tone, or 入声)

be prepared to see works in which the tones contours are intepreted differently (for example 阴平 as 55, 阳平 as 35, 阴上 as 51, 阴去 as 11, 阳去 as 33, 阴入 as 21, and 阳入 as 55). you will notice that even though they are interpreted differently, the tone contours remain the same (a level tone remains a level tone, a falling tone remains a falling tone, a low tone remains a low range, a high tone remain in the high range). therefore these little difference are just due to the subjective interpretation on individual authors.

also be prepared to see works in which it says there are 5 tones or 8 tones.

works that state there are only 5 tones usually disregard the last two clipped tones (the underlined 32 and 4) as variations of the first 5 relaxed tones

works that state there are 8 tones are usually describing the 泉州 (QuanZhou / ChuanChiu) variety of Hokkien. In QuanZhou dialect, isolated characters has only 7 tones, but the 去声 words will undergo 2 types of tone-sandhi depending on whether it is 阴区 or 阳去, therefore in reality there are 8 tones.

as a practice, I follow the commonly accepted number of tones for the 6 following common languages (or dialects if you would like to call it) that you can find in Singapore:

Hakka (梅县/MeiXian/MoiYen variety) 6 tones

Hainanese (文昌/WenChang/BoonShio variety) 6 tones

Hokkien (厦门/XiaMen/Amoy/E-Mng variety) 7 tones

Hockchiu (福州/FuZhou/HukChew variety) 7 tones

Teochew (汕头/ShanTou/Swatow variety) 8 tones

Cantonese (广州/GuangZhou/KwongTsau variety) 9 tones

Bangulzai SG

I don't think you can learn a language like you are learning some science or technical subject.

My parents can speak Malay, and that by interaction with Malays and Indians in the market. Not by any lesson or cassette tape.

You want to learn Hokkien, you must assimilate yourself into the Hokkien speaking world. Kopi tiams and markets would be the best place.

Bo ah, le anchua mah si buay kong ay.

singapore hokkien is not totally the same as taiwan. got abit of malay also. but languages no matteer wad, is to communicate with each other, as long as u understand each other should be ok.

what mancha say is absolutely correct.

you must immerse yourself into a Hokkien speaking environment to pick out language. just like a baby who donno how to read and write but know how to speak first by listening and imitating

and also what popmynutsy say is also correct

singapore/malacca/penang/johor/indonesian hokkien has integrated malay vocabulary which makes itself special from taiwanese and china hokkien

addressing your query on IPA

you can find the definition of International Phonetic Alphabet in the internet yourself first.

i will demonstrate how IPA works beautifully for Hokkien here instead:

like what mancha said: "Bo ah, le anchua mah si buay kong ay."

transcribed in IPA without tones, for Xiamen variety: "bo a, li an tsũã ma si bue kɔŋ e"

with tones + tone-sandhi: "bo(24) a(0), li(35 or 53) an(22 or 55 or 53) tsũã(35 or 53) ma(11) si(11) bue(11) kɔŋ(53) e(0)"

comparing mancha's transciption and my IPA transciption, u'll notice:

Gabriella SG

Get friends who speak hokkien and practice conversing with them. But avoid the ciao Ah-bengs and Ah-lians.

Cyraxin SG

There is nothing wrong with learning different cultural languages. but not on the expense of the common one. I am a foreigner here and i've got one word of the english spoken here........uncomprehensible :p

yhjow SG

Ap0cAlySm,

I'm a Taiwanese who has been living in Singapore for most of my life. Although Mandarin is my best Chinese language, I also speak fluent Taiwanese Minnan (Hokkien). I've been interested in Hokkien dialect since last year and had been finding time to 'study' it in the hope of advancing my Hokkien.

Taiwanese Minnan had over the past 20 years fast become the 'standard' Hokkien due to mass propagation of Taiwanese Hokkien drama and Pop Songs. Taiwan has become the center of Hokkien culture, just like Hong Kong's position in the cantonese world.

Although I speak Taiwanese Minnan, I'm also familiar with local Singaporean Hokkien. Nevertheless, if you want to learn good proper Hokkien, Taiwanese Minnan would still be the prefered one. Singaporean Hokkien has been corrupted to a large degree by many imported Malay words, Teochew and Cantonese such that it's no longer pure.

If you wish to find a conversational partner to practise or learn Hokkien (free of course), you're free to contact me at [email protected] . We can meet up and I can teach you Hokkien.

TWE SG

Taiwanese hokkien and local hokkien is abit different in the way they use the words . So don't be surprised if pple here don't really get what you are talking abt . Taiwanese hokkien is called Min nan yu , whereas our hokkien is called Fu jian .

Bangulzai SG

Ap0cAlySm,

If you wish to find a conversational partner to practise or learn Hokkien (free of course), you're free to contact me at [email protected] . We can meet up and I can teach you Hokkien.

I agree that without a doubt Singaporean Hokkien has been corrupted by other languages, but then, the isolation from China Hokkien has also lead Singaporean Hokkien to preserve older features which are losing ground in respective China Hokkien varieties

eg. I read a latest report last year on in China, 漳州 Hokkien that nowadays the youngsters tends not to pronounce the 入声韵尾 -p -t -k anymore and reduces them to a glottal stop final. therefore a lost of differentiation in the original phonemes. In Singaporean Hokkien, -p -t -k & -glottal stop final are pronounced clearly and audibly (can't quote source, the book is found at Main National Library Chinese Reference Section)

eg. I observed something in Singaporean Hokkien about words originating from 中古韵类's “曾”摄开口一等三等。 this would be a time-consuming topic, i think i will discuss only if you or anyone here request for elaboration

to Singaporean layman, you are right (taiwanese hokkien can call Min Nan Yu 闽南语 / Tai Yu 台语 and our hokkien we call Fu Jian Hua 福建话 Hokkien Wuay or Hokkien)

in the linguistics field, there is 狭义的闽南语 Versus 广义的闽南语, in both cases, Taiwanese Hokkien and our Hokkien are all included in them

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