I perfer to mail one whole packet to do the job one time.
Sending serveral packages theory may sound nice .
If assumpting both of them deliver on the spot. if
they pack less explovies and fragment - how they are more
capable ?
I don't think you are getting my point, which is kind of strange
considering how obvious it is.
The problem with the 40mm is that it's engagement options are
extremely limited, even if you have a more explosives, the ability
to send them to the enemy are hampered by it's slow flight time and
large CEP as well as the difficulty of having to use an lobbing
shot to engage even targets that are moderately close ranged.
So what this means that in practice a lot of 40mm is actually
wasted on missed shots, or are totally unable to engage their
targets at all.
I try to imagine - I shot 1 x 40mm round at a target 200m
& you to make up the same payload - shoot 3 x 20mm rounds at a
target 200m . My round will hit and kill all enemies. Your
round due to less payload - will need 2nd & 3rd to do the job
totally, wait .... if enemy hit 1st round by you .... think they
would take cover already...!!! But then you must be shoot 2nd and
3rd round fast like rambo - so they will not have reaction time.
But then i began to wonder if your 2nd and 3rd round in your
hurry to fire them like rambo, will you miss !!!
Erm what makes you think the 25mm grenade lacks the
explosive power to take out a group of enemies?
I've checked the
lethal radius of both grenades, they check out at about the same.
In fact the 25mm smart grenade actually has a LARGER kill radius of
10m vs 5m for the old 40mm HEDP due to it's airbursting effect.
Killing power is not an issue here.
But that's a moot point considering that 25mm smart
airbust packs more then enough explosives to take out a group
of enemies in one shot. I do not see any reason to doubt the
killing power of the 25mm.
Also if you are talking about things like new thermobaric
grenades and the like, killing power is not really an issue more
then the ability to send that killing power to the enemy. The main
weakness of the 40mm (which you have no even adressed), is it's
slow projectile that makes it very difficult to aim especially at
longer ranges.
Also you are not accounting for the fact that you have an
increased engagement envelope afforded by the 25mm grenade. You can
shoot further, faster and with more precision then the old 40mm
grenade.
So I don't know what you are talking about. You only look at
amount of explosives and leave out things like range, ease of use,
precision and the like that matter as much, if not more. I think it
is you who needs to justify your case and not me, you are focusing
on a very limited scope to make your argument while ignoring just
about everything else.
Going by your logic, one could reckon there's no need for a 40mm
grenade at all because a hand held SFG grenade is far more powerful
then what we can pack into a 40mm shell.
Frankly T-trex you are just the opposite of lionnoisy like a
young boy who just like new toys without question of the contents -
blindly accepting the claims of the manufacturer.... and writing of
older stuff effectiveness !!!!
Am I one?
Anyone the opposite of lionnoisy would be someone who knows his
stuff and argues for them well, in which case I would indeed not
mind you saying I am the opposite of lionnoisy.
Note that I have gone over in detail about the advantages of the
new format grenades over the old 40mm, and you so far have failed
to really produce anything concrete to refute them beyond vauge
dismissals. I have pointed out how the greater range and precision
of the 25mm affords more options to the infantryman.
Also I've noticed that in
your points you do not seem to have done any homework on the new
round, given your points made on it's range as well as the
tactical advantages it offers to the user in terms of
time on target are vastly off. In fact it almost seems to me
that you are making your comments based not on knowledge, but on
figures that I frankly have no idea where you are pulling out from
except from assumptions.
And I am not accusing you,
I will quote your examples.
Firstly, you made the
mistake of getting the action of these new grenades entirely wrong,
saying that they behave like tank rounds and rely on penetrative
power.
Those
new generation rounds like - 20mm rounds - the
concentration is speed on launch - for the penetration
power, it shoot straight and fast and penetrate more like your
tank rounds.
Where in the world did you
get such an idea? This is nowhere even near anywhere how the new
grenades work!
And penetration is
certainly not part of its job description.
After I corrected you, you
backtracked and then came up with more points, which was as
follows:
Let compare - speed 20mm vs 40mm - how much faster 0.1 sec ? I
am happy with 40mm delivery speed. If ability to go 0.01 - 0.03 sec
faster ... it is just better to have.
This is not only entirely
wrong, your first estimate of 0.1 second is 10 to 20 times less
then the actual time advantage it offers to the user, and
your 0.01-0.03 sec faster it is wrong by a factor of
100!
The new rounds are
considerably faster then the old 40mm, by a factor of nearly 2.5.
This means that the rounds arrive a lot faster then the old 40mm,
sometimes nearly thrice as fast.
Even at moderate ranges
like 200 meters, the round arrives on target a nearly two
seconds before the old 40mm.
How does this happen?
Firstly the 40mm not only has a slow projectile speed of
77mps, you have to lob it significantly in order to reach the
ranges you want, this means that the projectile has to
travel additional distance in the arc to reach the target
increasing the flight time. Increased flight time means
greater projectile instability and CEP (affected by wind and
the like), as well as the possibility of the enemy moving out
of the lethal radius of the round as well as extremely large lead
estimations.
The new rounds however are
nearly 2.5 times at fast at 185-200mps, which affords them a
much flatter arc when they are fired. This actually travel LESS
distance then a 40mm when fired at the target at the
same range, vastly increasing their time on
target.
And all this matters quite
a bit in battle, especially if you are trying to give squad support
with grenades.
And at long ranges like
400m, the new grenades beat the old one by a lot, you are talking
about enough time to actually take cover in the region of 4
seconds. and the difference is extremely significant why?
Because the time lag is significant enough that the enemy can
actually move out of the killbox.
Note that 2-4 seconds is a
BIG difference from the 0.02 and 0.03 sec faster that you claimed.
In fact the time advantage is about 100 times faster then what you
claim!
Where you got 0.02 and 0.03 I do not
know seriously... but in any case the advantages afforded by the
25mm are not simply "nice to have", the can be an absolute
lifesaver, you are talking in the ballpark of a 250 percent
increase in performance in a very vital area such as muzzle
velocity and time on target.
Let compare - range 20mm vs 40mm - ? vs 400m. Most of 40mm are
400m, I am happy with 400m. If further of course would be good. But
it is hard to say 20mm has longer range. Please note that South
African designers of the Milkor MGL ("M32MGL" in U.S. service)
developed a new "Extended Range Low Pressure" (ERLP) 40x51mm
cartridge. This round extends the range of the 40 mm grenade from
400m (440yd) to 800m (880yd).
This is another area in
which you got your facts totally wrong again. The new grenades can
reach out to 1 click, where the old 40mm can only reach 400
meters.
1000 m is a big difference
from 400m, I don't see how you can say that "it is hard to say 20mm
has longer range"
But this is not all, there
is more.
Now range is one thing,
but the ability to engage with precision at range matters as much
as well. If you look at the stats for both rounds, you'll realize
that the new format grenades are better as
well.
Firstly at 400m, the 40mm
grenade is not good for anything but area targets (that is
dispersed targets), this is because at that range the CEP of the
round is so high that it is practically useless for attacking point
targets like windows or a dug in enemy. It does not matter even if
the 40mm round is smart airbust because the CEP is large enough
that despite the enhanced radius of the airbust, it is still
ineffective in engaging point targets.
And I've shot at targets
with the 40mm at 400m before, the round not only takes very long to
arrive, it is also not good for anything other then area
bombardment. Additionally the enemy can very well move out of the
kill radius of the round in the time it took to reach him, meaning
you to lead the target and guess where he'll be anywhere from
the 5-7 seconds it takes for your 40mm to reach the
killbox.
Contrast this to the
performance of the new grenades, they can engage point targets up
to 500m, which is 300-350m greater then the old grenades in
point-target performance (150-200m). Additionally, beyond that they
have an additional 200 meters where they will be optimal
for area targets (700m) and their maximum range is a further
200 meters (1000m) where they still retain their ability to engage
area targets.
All in all on one target
for range, you are talking about a 200-250 percent increase in
performance, and that is not factoring in things like smart
munitions and ease of use as well as the greater volume of fire
that can be sustained with the
new munitions.
I would like to hear your thoughts on the greater range,
precision, rate of fire, and speed of the new format grenades.
In fact it seems to me that your entire case is based on one
point, and that is pretty much the 40mm has more explosives then
the 25mm, and as I have pointed out, this is NOT the only factor.
There is no point having so much explosives when you can't
effectively send it to the target.
So who's the fanboy who blindly sticks to his case here? Prove
to me in concrete terms why the 40mm is better and I'll agree, but
your points so far are not up to scratch. And note that I'm not
speaking blindly here, I've shot the 40mm HEDP before and is well
aware of what it takes to aim and use this round. It does not take
anybody with a bit of common sense to realize the advantages
afforded by the new format grenades.
Who is blind here to miss out the fact that the new projectile
is up to 250% faster?
Who is blind to miss out the fact that it can engage point
targets over twice the distance of the old round, and area targets
over twice that as well?
Who is blind to miss out that the infantryman can carry twice
the amount of rounds?
In fact the only thing that seems visible to you is the amount
of explosives... which I find very odd indeed.
So I think the onus is on you to prove your case, calling me a
fanboy of new technology and calling me rambo will not help,
it's just a strawman argument.
I do not blindly support something just because it is new, I
just did the math and it pointed to the new format.
I have no vested interest in advertising for the 25mm grenade
anyway, am I getting paid by them? Nope. I made my own conclusions
from the facts I gathered about the new grenade format, as well as
my own experiences with the old. And frankly it's pretty obvious
which one gives you a significant tactical advantage.
