ST new 40mm Low Velocity ABM

last SG · 2008-06-19T00:41:02+00:00

SG is the largest 40 mm grenades maker in the world http://investor.metalstorm.com.au/irm/Company/ShowPage.aspx?CPID=1562And what is so remarkable about that...

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

All this fanciful tech simply means there will be a relatively high failure rate, never mind that ST's QC is horrible.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

All this fanciful tech simply means there will be a relatively high failure rate, never mind that ST's QC is horrible.

Tough if ST is trying to lead the field in advanced 40mm munitions.

Personally I don't think ST and SAF work very well together... at least when it comes to things like infantry weapons. The most bread and butter weapon, the SAR is still to make its rounds around the SAF despite it being in existence for nearly a decade. In fact when I was in service which was not long ago even our grenadiers in a front line unit have not gotten the SAR-21 M203, which means there is a lack of compatiability between our SAR-gunners and our grenadiers. Can't swap mags if needed.

storywolf SG

t-rex, you just dump pages of words - data to try to drown out any other point of views ! Just blindly base on your own preference. Just because something look better, perform better - the other 40mm suddenly will be totally wipe out and suddenly it is not effective ! Sorry no point in arguing with a child that is too engross with new toys to remember that old toy still works.

Think time will be my judge ! Let see if 40mm round and 40mm weapons still exist and is popular after 10 years !!!

See your example - "I would like you see you using the same argument arguing for the "co-existence" of the british longbow versus the assault rifle" - middle ages weapon to compare with modern rifle - that is why i am saying you are unfair !! You just twisting words !!! since 40mm a 20th century weapon not a middle age weapon !!! You just plain unfair.

As for 40mm - suddenly you write till it is totally ineffective weapon - so useless !!! Please tell it to those who use it - and those who been killed or injuried by 40mm weapons .... you can twist your words ... but fact remains - it have done its damages and kills !!! And it will still be in use even though you like your new toys

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

t-rex, you just dump pages of words - data to try to drown out any other point of views ! Just blindly base on your own preference.

LOL now you are getting rather laughable, you are trying to make an argument against me for actually having making a solid case?

I am afraid this "wall of text" that you claim to "drown out" any other point of view actually comes under the well established practice of making a solid case for your own position under the established routines of debate. If you are unable to come up with anything except vauge points and singular assumptions that try to fly in the face of data, then you can't blame your opponent for having a more convincing argument then you.

Really, this is pretty funny, because it's like you are pretty akin to amateur boxer trying to pick a fight with a professional boxer, and then blaming his opponent for being able to punch harder and faster then him.

Think time will be my judge ! Let see if 40mm round and 40mm weapons still exist and is popular after 10 years !!!

Wow, so now instead of actually facing your opponent in the field of debate, you are setting up some arbitary standards of judging the matter?

The case in point has no time frame, I am saying simply is that once the situation allows for the new format grenades to be perfected, there is no question about their superior killing ability over the old format grenades. And also I am arguing for the fact that a unit using the new round would be far better off then one using an old round.

Pretty much you are trying to argue in vauge and ambigious terms, such as length of service and the like. Being in service or being popular does not mean that something is sucessful not should you actually go into war with it.

In simple terms, I don't care if 40mm is still in service 10 or 20 years from now. What matters is that my men go into battle with the greatest advantage afforded. Chances are if you are stuck with an old thing is more of having no choice or lack of ability to get something better instead of it actually being useful.

Just because something look better, perform better - the other 40mm suddenly will be totally wipe out and suddenly it is not effective !

That's your reading into my position.

My position is simple but you have failed to grasp it. The new format grenades are superior to the old ones and offers the grunt more killing ability. What militaries do with that knowledge is not my concern, though I suspect they are more likely to see reason then you.

Unfortunately you fail to appeal to the law of logical congruence.

Why should not your example be taken to it's logical extreme? If you made a valid and solid point it should be able to wistand intellectual rigour and testing. Unfortunately your ability to make points ignoring hard facts and running on singular examples like "I or John Doe can do this or that and hence that is what our case is built on."

You are the one going by singular and isloated examples and ignoring the cold, hard numbers.

My point is simple, I don't care if something can be put through a window by a Navy at 200 meters or what diameter it is or not. If it's better it's better. If it replaces or does not replace something is not my concern. But naturally militaries are always in the habit of improving their stuff so chances are your beloved 40mm will go the way or the dinosaurs or be forced to change and adapt their roles.

But in my opinion of course, is that once technology is perfected there is no question of what the military will do or choose. You don't fight a war by hanging onto legacy systems once you have something better at hand. In fact various attempts to replace the M-16 is not so much proof that the M-16 cannot be dispensed with, but that the US military reconizes they need something much better then it.

How's that different with the 40mm?

Did I say it's totally ineffective? The only thing that seems to be totally ineffective is your ability to apply proper comprehension to things written.

In fact I have spelt out much more clearly then you what the 40mm can and cannot do. Instead of writing "I can take out groups of enemies" or "I've seen a navy seal do..." I have gotten down to the numbers and did my math.

So while you write about navy seals I can point out that same navy seal

So what's totally ineffective? Only in your world of one-track, black and whites there are.

The facts are simple 400m vs 1000m max range, 300-500% improved Pk, 150-200m vs 500m point target performance, 200+% improvement in flight time. I make my conclusions from there.

"Write till it is totally ineffective" is your assumption and you went on to make a unnecessary and weak argument on the number of people killed and injured by it which does nothing to add to your case. Did I say the 40mm was unable to kill? Nope, that was your little pet case and you're proving something that everybody already know that did nothing but made you look like you didn't know how to argue cohorently.

I am afraid you are your own worse enemy in this thread.

storywolf SG

The new format grenades are superior to the old ones and offers the grunt more killing ability. What militaries do with that knowledge is not my concern, though I suspect they are more likely to see reason then you.

Who is using the new format ? Limited users !!! It just just you reading out manufacturer articles to say how good it is !!!

If it is that good why would not other militaries adopt it ?

By saying that - why militaries do with the knowledge is not your concern = shows that you just blindly read out something - without needing to justify if it is really that effective in real - that is not your concern ? Very irresponsible ...that mean you can say anything you like without caring it is real or right !!! - really talkcock that all !!!

rey619 SG

all STFU, Rangers pwns all noob shit

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Who is using the new format ? Limited users !!! It just just you reading out manufacturer articles to say how good it is !!!

If it is that good why would not other militaries adopt it ?

Oh boy, you really pwned yourself hard this time...

This is a good example of you not doing your homework once again. The new format grenades are still in development, so what makes you think that something that is still in development will magically find adoption in militaries worldwide. Is the JSF currently in widespread use? Is network centric warfare in widespread use yet? Is the FCS AFV or AAAV in widespread use?

Are these systems vastly superior to current ones and slated to eventually replace them?

Yes.

Just FYI, does the US Army's attempt to find a better alternative to the 40mm to equip their troops count as a big user to you?

LOL.

You don't seem to know just about anything about the actual affairs of things given you have done little in this thread but make a long string of embarrassing factual errors in your posts and then trying to crying about your opponent being more prepared then you, how funny and sad.

For the reason given in my response above, you just about wasted your energy typing this paragraph. It seems that common sense and basic reasoning is not your concern and now you are trying for desperate arguments to booster your failing case... but it is unfortunate that you've made just another embarassing mistake by trying to argue against a future combat system by going for it's current adoption status when it's not even in that stage yet, a simply fact you could have picked up had you bothered to even read the relevant articles.

So who's the ignorant one here speaking bird talk?

I'm afraid it's just you.

Sepecat SG

Whether it is a 20 mm , 25 mm or 40 mm each will have its pros and cons. Until the 25 mm round is finally accepted and adopted ( if ever ), the 40 mm will be here to stay. Even if ( to me it is a big if ) 25 mm gets adopted, dont forget that there is lots of room for improvements yet for the 40 mm and there will still be many users for this round.

lionnoisy SG

In the Future Combat System FY08 Program Adjustments,

US Army just ''eliminates'' XM-307 (advanced crew served weapon),

ie 25 mm air burst grenade launcher--25 ABS GL.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/fcs.htm

Eliminates XM307 (Advanced Crew Served Weapon)---BOQ

Currently ,there is no ABS individual (hand held) or crew served

ABS in US Army,according to open sources.

of courses,u can say they have star war weapon,but classified.

Can u tell me the reasons of dropping XM 307?

1.Telling the facts is not belittleing or insulting

I just tell the facts here.While i say US Army dunt get XM 307

in the near future,

can i tell u ST alreday get similiar weapons in the products list

for few years?

I have not said US few defence giants not able to produce XM 307.

Previoulsy,when i say ST can make comparable weapons as ang moh,

u guys jump into the roof.

I dunt know what will u do if i tell u ST can do better than Ang Moh!!

US cannot make XM 29,but Singapore can make similiar weapon

Sg Ty have already told me other countries can make dual calibres

individual weapon.But can they make the ABS GL,as i report

in the opening post?If so,pl share here.

Future is just a dream.U have to dream big,of course.

USA made a mistake by developing ABS in individual weapon first,

ie XM 29.They shall follow ST who developed ABS in crew served

weapon first.

Now Yankees find out squeeing the fire control in a small weapon

is a difficult task,if not mission impossible.

Dream big is a must.But u have to do it step by step.

U cant do every things.Therefore,u have to Intergrate Off the Shelf

Systems to expediate the development.

u can see fr list below that ST can make similiar weapons like

XM 29(US's dream is multiple grenades in magazine.Singapore is single shot but

dream come true.Which one do u prefer now?)

XM 307 25 ABS GL,project dropped. vs dreams come true

SAR 21 Assault Rifle

http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=138

http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/detail.aspx?pdid=277

http://www.stengg.com/CoyCapPro/listing.aspx?pdtypeid=1

reference:

http://www.army.mil/aps/08/information_papers/transform/Major_Acquisition_Programs_Future_Combat_System.html

Eliminates the XM-307 (advanced crew served weapon).

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/213732

http://www.peosoldier.army.mil/programs.asp

no more XM 307 there.

http://www.gd.com/

http://www.usnightvision.com/Downloads/PEOBrochure.pdf

http://www.defense-update.com/products/x/xm307.htm

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/?s=XM307+Advanced+Crew+Served+Weapon+System.

http://www.peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_IW_XM25.pdf

http://www.peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_IW_M320.pdf

http://peosoldier.army.mil/mediaalerts/xm312.asp

http://www.peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SWAR_LW_LW.pdf

XM 307--project dropped

I c

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

But can they make the ABS GL,as i report

in the opening post?If so,pl share here

Are you blind or just have bad memory? You asked this question not too long back and I provided a whole LIST of different countries that already use ABM technology, deployed it, and USED it in BATTLE long before the SAF.

Do you really need me to pwn you again?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

You are WRONG again.

Firstly, systems like the FN2000 were around in production long before there were smart grenades. The concept is hardly new.

And as for a smart grenade launcher that has been produced and USED in combat:

The Mk 47 Mod 0 or Striker 40\is a 40 mm grenade machine gun with an integrated fire control system, capable of smart programmable 40 mm shells in addition to various 'dumb' rounds.

In addition to being able to fire traditional grenades like the Mk 19 grenade launcher, it can fire smart grenades that can be programmed to air burst after a set distance. A computerized sight allows the user to set this distance.

The model is currently being evaluated by the United States armed forces and the Israeli Defence Forces. It is currently in combat use by some US Special Operations forces in Afghanistan

How lionnoisy? Nothing to say now?

I wonder what excuse you are going to come up with next?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Don't avoid the question and ask for more examples. You asked for examples and got it now you have to answer the question.

How is STK even unique, or the first in this concept of ABM given others have already done it?

Even Rheinmetall Defence, which is a defence contractor that is much bigger then STK long has this figured out. As they said, the concept is NOTHING NEW and have their own line of 40mm ABM... the only difference it seems is that this is so chicken feat for them that they unlike STK, do not see the need to scream about it in local papers like the Straits Times to influence people like you who don't seem to know anything at all about all things military so you can start to extrapolate fantastic abilities like killing tank-optics at extreme range for it:

As the Germans said:

"The basic concept isn't entirely new. RWM Schweiz AG already developed its 35 mm Ahead ammunition for air defence more than ten years ago," says senior scientist Pierre Freymond. "The Ahead projectile contains a programmable time fuse that is inductively programmed at the muzzle. The fire control unit calculates the fuse setting time on the basis of specific parameters (such as air pressure, temperature, range and muzzle speed)."

Note, 10 years ago. STK is simply using a decade old idea.

I need

laser range finder for both calibres

Please don't demostrate your ignorance of military technology.

Why would you need a seperate range finder for both calibers? All you need is one and you shoot accordingly to the range as indicated by your sight.

Why increase weight for an extra range finder that will tell you redundant information? Do you need seperate salt shakers for your soup and fries?

With billions of defense budgets.how come there is no

dual calibres hand held weapon in US?

Adding smart munitions to this is nothing new, just teaching an old dog new tricks, for some reason you seem to think that STK is the only company who knows how to do it.

If you are talking about why there isn't any smart grenade launcher in use currently, use your common sense:

Look at above proposed XM 8.Rifle plus single shot GL.Old stuff lah.

That is practical, not old. Instead of trying to figure out how to keep messing around with heavy and slow 40mm rounds, this is just a stopgap while they work with a new format, you want to mess around with stacking 40mm grenades or coming up with a clunky SSW to load them in a magazine be my guest.

What is old stuff? Trying to make old 40mm grenades "smart"? Or working to develop a new, faster, and more effective round?

Instead of just teaching new tricks to a limited 40mm grenade format, the US is researching on a new ammunition format that is up to 500 percent more capable in engaging targets then the old 40mm HEDP format.

It is obvious you have run out of examples and are just trying to twist each and every example, no matter how bad the point you create is in a weak attempt to try to show why STK even has anything on the yanks.

Unfortunately it's not working.

I mean rifle plus grenade.Rifle + shot gun is ready or soon wil be ready

for Yankees.

Another case of your not doing your homework.

This has long been in use, for some reason you seem to think it is "ready or soon wil be ready for Yankees"

What's next? You're going to ask if the AK47 is "ready or soon wil be ready for Ruskies?"

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Air burst

self--destruct for rounds.

Besides the one or two shared by STyrann,is there any more?

More correctly the question should be "advanced firearms" concepts, are there anymore?

Firing air burst rounds is just one part of an advanced infantry weapon, what is more important if the other concepts are being implemented on not just the Squad Support level but also for the normal grunts.

Unfortunately for lionnoisy, STK is neither ahead, nor the first in this field... plenty of weapons developed by other countries are already in the game. Note that below is an not-complete list of advanced firearms being developed and produced by other nations.

Some can fire air bursting grenades, some are future-warrior capable, but they are all on par more advanced then what STK is marketing in the SSW.

Korea OICW- more powerful KE module then ST SSW as well as capable of smart grenade launching.

Australia OICW concept, using their metalstorm technology to stack 40mm rounds. The KE module again is more powerful then STK's SSW.

Note that the balance of this weapon, due to the fact that the HE module is above, rather then overslung, is superior to the front heavy SAR-21/M203, worse if the SAR-21 is using a stacked grenade launcher (technology ironically borrowed from the aussies lionnoisy tries to knock).

Israeli TAR-21 OICW variant -a modified TAR-21 rifle fitted with electronic sighting and fire control unit and tactical data interfaces.

Note the Israelis have developed smart grenades as well.

This variant once again, will have a more powerful KE module then STK's SSW.

Belgian FN2000, dual caliber, capable of firing smart grenades with FCS addon. Not surprisingly, a more powerful KE module then ST's SSW yet again.

Even the venerable M-4 has been decked to be capable of this ability, in the Land Warrior system with advanced sighting systems.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

How lionnoisy? Want more examples?

How about the Israeli IMI MPRS system?

At Eurosatory 2006 IMI is demonstrating the progress of its Multi-Purpose Rifle System (MPRS) with the new ORION customized sight, designed to provide a ready to use, improved lethality system, utilizing standard assault rifles, advanced 40mm air-burst grenades and standard 5.56mm ammunition. Since its first introduction in 2004 the system passed several important milestones. In the coming months it is scheduled to complete type classification for the Israel Defense Forces, supporting squad level weapon systems.

MPRS uses the new ORION customized fire control and sighting system providing navigation, target acquisition, ranging, ballistic computation, ammunition interface as well as day and night capability in a single, compact 600 gr system. The MPRS can be applied to most assault weapons such as Tavor, M4, SA80, INSAS, FAMAS or any other weapon using a standard Picatiny rail.

The IMI Air Burst Ammunition is configured as a rifle grenade, a 40mm grenade for M203/AG-36 and other grenade launchers, as well as in non-lethal and intelligence applications variants below.

Embedded in a C3 system based on IMI's Warrior Compact Targetor (WACT), MPRS facilitates advanced sensor to shooter capabilities for small task forces.

The MPRS enables warfighters to use IMI's new 40mm air-burst grenades, at high precision, facilitating an overhead, "around the corner" or "within a window" fire for effect. When associated with IMI's new time-fused, air-burst 40mm grenades, MPRS uses a built-in communications device to set the grenade's programmable fuze to explode the grenade at the required distance and height above the target or around a corner, to achieve the desired air-burst effect.

Reconnaissance Grenade (Over the Hill)

While the 40mm high explosive airburst grenade is primary ammunition for the MPRS, the system will also incorporate other munition types, including non lethal grenades and an expendable camera fitted to a reconnaissance grenade. The grenade is fired through a ballistic trajectory toward the target, transmitting images of the target through its descent. IMI is cooperating with Israel Aircraft Industries MLM division to develop a command and control system which will be based on MPRS elements and establish effective management and control of infantry units. The system will interface with the warfighter's fire control systems, day/night observation systems (such as binoculars and recce grenades) and personal role radios.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

The unique 40mm NATO air burst prefragmented ammunition utilises the "bouncing" concept - when the grenade hits the ground the nose fuze initiates a pyrotechnic composition.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

GDATP Receives $16 Million Contract for MK47 Striker 40mm Grenade Machine Gun

CHARLOTTE, N.C. – General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products [GDATP], a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), has been awarded a $16 million firm-fixed-price contract from the U.S. government for production of the MK47 MOD 0 Weapon System. Called the "STRIKER40," the MK47 weapon system is a lightweight 40mm grenade launcher with an integrated fire control system capable of firing air-bursting ammunition.

The MK47's integrated gun and fire control system is significantly more accurate than any previously fielded grenade launcher. The MK47 weapon system is capable of firing programmable air-burst ammunition, as well as all conventional high-velocity 40mm ammunition in the U.S. inventory.

General Dynamics is partnered with Raytheon (Forest, Miss.) to build the Lightweight Video System (LVS) fire control, designed by General Dynamics Canada of Ottawa, Ontario. Program administration will be conducted at General Dynamics' Burlington, Vt., facility.

General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products provides a broad range of system solutions for military and commercial applications. The company designs, develops and produces high-performance armament systems; a full range of advanced composite-based products; biological and chemical detection systems; and mobile shelter systems. More information about General Dynamics Armament and Technical Products can be found on the World Wide Web at http://www.gdatp.com.

General Dynamics, headquartered in Falls Church, Virginia, employs approximately 68,400 people worldwide and expects 2004 revenue of $19 billion. The company is a market leader in mission-critical information systems and technologies; land and expeditionary combat systems, armaments and munitions; shipbuilding and marine systems; and business aviation.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

FYI, RWM Schweiz AG of Rhienmetall already got the concept working over a decade ago, long before ST even came up with anything.

So what's so special about ST?

Nothing.

Another case of you tooting horns for no reason.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

SSW

NAMMO.u can read from SSW thread that NAMMO,together with ST

and possibly with other co,also developing SSW products at prototype

stage,if not production stage..

The Israeli MPRS is already working and the concept is sound and proven, not to mention they save a lot of money and time by using their TAR-21 (which is a generally superior infantry weapon to the SAR-21) as a base.

Our SSW can truly be considered to be in production when we see our grunts carry and use it in the field. Not all our soldiers have recieved the SAR-21 or the SAR-21 M203, what makes you think such a specialist weapon like the SSW is anything but years away from even being issued?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Should we give lionnoisy a break?

Well he could give himself a break by actually using some basic, decent common sense before he tries to post in here. Is it any surprise that he always gets mauled?

What other results can come from the following ideas:

1. Use Fantail UAV crash into targets, repeated claims of Fantail as the smallest UAV in the world (untrue).

2. Launching F-18s off Landing Helicopter Dock Ships

3. Despite only having fired 20 rounds in his NS, he somehow tries to tell infantrymen in here that carrying the SAR-21 in one hand by scope handle as an extremely important combat tactic when "running for your life", leaving soldiers completely defenceless and unbalanced.

The real reason it seemed that lionnoisy was so insistent on it was simply because a scope handle was a feature the TAR-21 did not have but the SAR-21 did, and hence wanted to play it up even if it made no sense after realizing that the TAR-21 is practically a superior infantry weapon in almost every respect... which is not surprising given the TAR-21 is a more expensive weapon built to higher standards by the Israelis. But lionnoisy just can't accept it however.

4. Arguing that 200 ton blast rated Mandai Underground Ammunition Facility on par with Cheyenne Mountains' massive multimegaton nuclear bunker.

5. Repeatedly arguing that the Australian navy must somehow have a ship to guard each and every single mile of their 18,000 km coast as well as vast Ocean, leaving out the fact that not even the USN is capable of such a feat.

6. Claiming that a large and slow, 76m/s 40mm round is the way to go given people are looking for a better, faster and lighter solution. Apparently this is not because the 40mm is better, but simply because Singapore happens to make a lot of it and lionnoisy just cannot help but see the need to "boost" its reputation.

He does so by claiming that our locally manufactured rounds are capable of amazing feats like disabling AFV vision at extreme range and what have you not, as well as claiming that Singapore is at the frontier of developing and manufacturing smart, air bursting munitions when this is not even true given the concept is hardly new, and that other nations have developed it before we did.

Also note that some of the ST inventions he is so hot about actually use AUSTRALIAN technology, namely in the stacked grenade launcher, but he is quiet about that for some reason and tries not to play up that part.

7. Proposing the use of inline skates for our infantrymen to save fuel and gain battlefield mobility, when contradicted by experienced soldiers in here he tried repeatedly to defend his idea without adressing any of their points, as usual going about his routine of not answering the glaring holes pointed out in his theories and to keep on raising new and useless questions.

And the best one:

8: Creating a clone to support himself when he could not win in virtually all his arguments, when exposed he panicked, went crazy and started making bizzare excuses about how his account was hacked before dissappearing for a few days.

But as time has shown, he is a person that just does not learn from his mistakes, as eventually the itch will build up enough that he will just have to post something.

So tell me, not say people don't want to give him a break, he is the one that can't give himself a break and keeps pwning himself with his ineffective and dishonest behavior in here.

If he had any common sense, he can be a bit more humble and realize that Singapore's Military is not the best is alot of things and admit our limitations, but unfortunately that is utterly unthinkable to him.

To him the SAF is just another tool to further his rah-rah about Singapore, which is actually a real disgrace to the people who have done the SAF proud.

So you tell me, give this guy a break from what? His actions are a joke and against everything a real soldier stands for. There is no honour, intergity and courage in his behaviour in here.

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