NS nowadays is like scout camp

last SG · 2008-02-08T00:25:15+00:00

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/304472?page=4#posts-7895317 # rooki Look, Singapore would never have needed such a wasteful armed forces if its...

Tosan SG

Aiyo,now wat century liao, all just sit behide the desk and fight war.

Hi Tech, using robots and fingers push the buttons.

Skye2 SG

It's a new generation now, recruits or soldiers are living better lives, receiving more education. They have a different set of thinking altogether. Do you think they will bother to fight for the country if they go through barbaric torture causing them to have zero morales? That being said, harsh trainings still exist, it's just that it's more toned down now.

Exactly, training will be tough and it will commensuarate with the needs of the SAF. But how they are conducted now is probably catered to the needs of a more educated workforce. Maybe in the past, you kick a recruit in the ass to get something through his thick skull to motivate him. Now, you motivate him by encouraging him to do it and try to touch base with his logic and intellect. And if he still cant get it....its `4 letter word time' and tekan time again. Though I know most instructors just go for the latter method as it is still easier and less time consuming.

Times change and you need to adapt.

Skye2 SG

No one is saying that by using technology we are mentally weak. But by relying too much on technology and forgetting the roots or the basics is a big mistake. Why did the poorly equiped North Vietnamese managed to whoop the arse of the US army? Or more recently, why did the ragtag militia in Somalia kick the arse of the US army? Goes to show you that there is only so much that technology can accomplish.

No one is saying that we are ignoring the `roots'. What are our boys undergoing training for 2 -2.5 years for? Might as well just ask them to sit at home and do online training.

The US lost the war because they they lost the will to fight a foriegn war(which did not threaten thier lives) at home. And who were thier enemies. Thats right. Conscript vietnamese soldiers. In addition, there is not exactly a vast tech disparity in those days as compared to today when you compare 3rd world forces to 1st world armed forces. About the Us in Somalia; they were completely outnumbered and under-equipped. If they had more equipment and troops, the result would have gone the other way. For every US soldier dead, dozens of Somalis died. That`s the difference between training, technology and competency and a simple man who takes up arms to fight.

Take a mentally tough soldier and give him technology and he becomes a killer. Take a guniang soldier and give him technology and he'll be ok at peacetime but when war breaks out he'd probably shoot himself in the foot.

Are`nt you over-exaggerating here? The Guniang soldier will try and survive. And that could mean killing an enemy to get his way out.

I'm fine with good food, King Koil mattress, banglas cleaning their plates and all. All I'm saying is don't forget the basics. In my days, the CSM can be 1 cm away from your face and f-ing you for failing IPPT and we would suck it up, apologise and move on. My cousin was just whining about how after he failed his 2.4, his Sgt told him he was useless and how "hurt" he was, and how this is not the way to talk to people. Whine whine whine! All you need is half the coy to be this guniang and you are screwed.

Well, arent you doing the same now? Whine whine whine about other people whining. Your argument is based on people complaining and whining about their circumstances. But Im telling you this has been there all the time and practically everywhere in the world. That`s what your typical recruit and mangkuk will tend to do; complain about instructor; complain about food, complain about gf, etc. This does not equate to mental weakness and job competency. When you went for NS training, you did not complain about something meh? food? instructor? another recruit with bad hygiene? hot girl you wish you can hump? Everything like heaven on earth for you? If so, then grats as you had a good time.

caleb_chiang SG

All along wayang only leh...

dadeadman1337 SG

Great first post. Someone do an ip check. What are our planes and ships for? Keep sea-lanes and air corrirdors open in peace-time and conflict for trade, food,etc. Which country saved the US can starve Singapore and lay a siege on Singapore? Utter rubbish. Do you know that many countries in this world including the ones in the region are not self sufficient when it comes to food ?

Forget the IP check, heard of Mcdonalds? Btw the other countries u toking is wat? Vietnam? Cambodia? Pls lah, their army no nid tok one

confusedboi SG

whats clear is one thing, sporeans lose out in the end

tough or senang ns period

ft wins in the end

jobs for ft

ns for sgporeans

Shotgun SG

As a well educated Singaporean teenager, they won't sit there and kena F-ed and not feel bad about. So what is wrong with complaining about it? I've heard people complaining over paper cuts... so?

If you keep treating these abusing these kids, making them do locker PT, scold their father mother, what does that accomplish? You make these kids either hate YOU (an instructor) more, hate the Army more, or worse, decide to shoot his PC during his next live range. Being objective about it, what is BMT about? Its providing basic soldiering skills to these recruits, helping them to adapt to the regimented lifestyle of being in the army. Where does abuse such cleaning toilets with toothbrushes fit in? Mind you, kids nowadays are not dumb. They know that a toilet can be cleaned in a more efficient manner. Making them do something this inefficient only serves to leave a foul taste.

And lets not even talk about the eventualities of War, and the brutality of combat. Unless the conscripts of the previous generations have had the experience of being intentionally shot at, or ducking for cover with live incoming artillery shells hounding their asses, don't even expect to apply these "expectations" to the "softer" 3G recruits.

All this, "I used to kena run around carrying a 155mm howitzer on my back, chiong up botak hill while pulling a broken down AMX-13 chained to my teeth and CSM duct taped to my ears while verbally abusing my lineage," is nothing more than an egotistical arguement parallel to "My dick is bigger than yours."

What they really need to instill into the recruits is the sense of camaraderie. The spirit that says, "if you don't quit, and I don't quit, we won't fail." Abuse does not get you there. That can only be accomplished by having an intense but objective training syllabus, that helping the recruits to understand the importance of the training.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Or more recently, why did the ragtag militia in Somalia kick the arse of the US army? Goes to show you that there is only so much that technology can accomplish.

Was it really an arse-kicking or simply things going wrong in war?

Actually it was technology that saved the Americans in Somalia... they had a kill/loss ratio of 50:1 despite being heavily outnumbered. If it wasn't for the constant Little Bird strafing runs and night fighting ability they had, they would almost certainly have been overrun and killed.

Let's put it this way... if you would go into any war do you want to be equipped and trained like the Somalian militia or the American Rangers back then? I dunno about you, but I go with the Rangers...

What happened then had little to do with technology or mental toughness... it had to do with a plan going wrong and the soldiers having to fight their way out of a bad situtation.

In any case, the Somalian militia didn't see their American opponents as "soft". In fact they had a healthy respect for the battlefield prowess of Rangers.

And this attitude extends to the insurgents in Iraq... the insurgents who didn't respect their enemies were soon killed, and those who were captured often expressed surprise that the marksmanship and discipline of the yanks, having been "briefed" by their higher-ups that the American infantryman cannot fight.

Technology is just a tool, and you need to be creative to get the most out of it. Nobody said it made you invincible but you'll be a fool not to have it. You can be a good marksman but you can't shoot anything if your gun has a 10 meter group at 20 feet. You need both.

In fact it seems to me those who are making this whole "see they were more high-tech but still lost" argument is are the ones who have the distorted view of technology. War is far more complicated then that... those who are arguing that if only we are tougher at any cost, even if it means of training our soldiers in unnecessary and stupid things, we will win wars are making a rather big mistake.

sgf SG

Skye2, you are missing the point! We used to whine but we whined about getting tekaned big time or getting confined just 'cos the signature touched the box on the armskote book. The whines I hear these days is because they got SCOLDED. Because the food is not nice. That's pathetic! And in my days the food really did suck. The tao kua was sour! These days the food is much better and they even get dessert and western food! Yet they still whine about it.

Its just like how someone cries when he gets a bayonet through his hand versus someone who cries when he gets a paper cut. Both are crying but the cause is very different. We b*tched about tekan which was damn bloody terok. They b*tch about verbal abuse. Have they gone so soft that they can't even take a tongue lashing?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Seriously, as an ex-BMTC instructor that ORDed in 2006 I had plenty of time to listen to recruits whine both in and outside of camp.

And most of them don't whine about being scolded... in fact they usually view the tounge lashing with a fair bit of dark humour, as in how creative Sarge can be at coming up with curses and how funny it is. It's only the one or two really problem ones in the platoon that can't take the verbal lashing, but there are always some of these jokers in there.

What they whine about, seems to me, is the same things that grunts back then whine about. Having to stay in camp for stupid reasons, doing stupid things and what have you not that seem to me very grunt things to do.

So I think I to disagree with you, in BMTC we didn't go all out to give our recruits an easy time and there are plenty of times we give them a hard time.

Shotgun SG

Finally an instructor speaks up.

Still, someone care to explain the advantages of Locker PT that helps enhances the readiness of this 3G army?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Finally an instructor speaks up.

Still, someone care to explain the advantages of Locker PT that helps enhances the readiness of this 3G army?

Exactly! When I was an instructor I found the whole notion of Locker PT stupid... not to mention counterproductive in terms of actually teaching your recruits things that will save them in war.

Are you going to bring your locker outfield? Going to use it as mobile cover during fire and movement? Going to casevac your locker?

I rather declare this or that guy shot, and ask his section to casevac him to this or that location. Not only is it siong, it is a more realistic reflection of what they going to face in the battlefield as well as how to work together as a team.

Another useful exercise would be to train them to "everything in, everything out" with their fieldpack. It trains them to pack and locate their equipment in quick time which would be a far better battlefield skill, not to mention aid them in discipline as well.

We did quite a bit of that things on them thou... so no, I think their training is not guniang... it just wisened up a lot since the old days where anything goes. Seriously, some old methods just have to go and be replaced with more productive ones.

Want to train soldier, must use brain as well.

Tancold SG

I train with NSF and NS men during my yearly ICT. You can see the difference between the "Old Birds" and "New Birds". Frankly those men who went to National Service in the 80's and early 90's (well any thing earlier ORD loh) are very much tougher and more hands-on in the field. Frankly, I will go to war with these bunch any day.

Yes, you might say NSF men not so experience etc. But I really really feel that they are really a "kuniang" bunch. I saw a scout trying to hammer a demo hook to secure a colour panel on a grass field with this tinny whinny hammer. I practically snatch it off his hand and stomp the demo hook into the ground and shouted "WTF are you doing soldier!!!!" ... guess wat? The damn kid had tears in his eyes.

This is what we old timers are saying about putting back the "TOUGHNESS" in national service.

Scania L113 lover SG

A fellow NSF got sent to hospital once during fire drill.

Cos my boss screwed him.

aikchongtan SG

Times have changed. We cannot relate or empathize with the deprivations in life that our forefathers faced in first-half of last century. We were brought up in the plentiful post-war era. So, for every “softie” that we have in our armed forces, please expect to find at least a matching number of “softies” in our potential aggressor(s)’ armed forces. (Please do not digress into a comparison about the standard of soldiering that conscript armed forces produced vs. professional armed forces in this thread. Empirical evidence has shown that both models produce effective soldiers. Do start a new topic thread if you have to).

Since we do not face a current conventional threat to our sovereignty, our society cannot tolerate what it perceives as hazing or bullying in our armed forces. For example, South Korea is technically still at war with North Korea; hence hazing is accepted by their society in general or “institutionalized” into the armed forces. Thailand has their regular share of violent border conflicts. Indonesia was fighting insurgencies awhile back. We simply do not have the context to condone hazing at present time. In any case, most of our junior specialists are NS personnel. They do not have more “real” soldiering experiences than their subordinates. Hence, there is less “authority” for them to haze their subordinates. Of course, when we have to go to war at short notice, I suspect hazing of new recruits/trainees will be tolerated since we have to convert them into “instant” soldiers to replace combat losses and prepare them for prolonged combat stress in modern battlefield. In a real op, enemy forces will “bully” our soldiers with live-rounds at the most inconvenient time, when we are sleep-deprived, wet, exhausted, dirty and… so I rather subject them to “bullying” in controlled environment before they parachute into the real battlefield.

Allow me to recount a day from my SAFINCO days. My section was advancing under “fire” up a stupid botak hill-side in SAFTI training area. Due to the lay of terrain, we were funneled into some gullies. In the heat of fighting, my buddy started screaming “Blood, blood...”. Training suspended. Trainer asked what happened. My buddy was bleeding from a superficial facial cut. (Hey, I get more blood than that in some close shaves I have each morning). My trainer, who is a regular with ranger-tab, sighed and seated us down in the open under the blazing mid-morning sun. He said we need to start behaving like soldier. You have to be there to feel the significance and impact of his simple words. The tone and volume was even but the message stuck with me. Nobody will suspend a fire-movement forward in a real fire-fight to attend to a casualty. You look after the fallen after you eliminate the immediate fatal threat. And yet, we froze while the trainer continued to lay down “fire” on us. He can see it’s a superficial wound from his vantage point with his eagle-eyes but we froze… L For the rest of my days in SAFINCO, we were switched on, man. In a night training, I was casevec on the shoulders of my buddy. All of a sudden, we got incoming “artillery rounds” on us. My buddy literally threw himself, with me still on his shoulders, into a ditch. MG, it was dark, raining and I can’t see what’s in the ditch J Both of us could have broken our neck. Liked my trainer used to joke about our future Army, “Good Morning, CPL XXX. J Welcome to lane 1 of chamber 1 for your 5^th 300m re-shoot today. I am sorry the groundsheet is a spot sandy now but please adopts prone position at your convenience. (Safety NCO dust the groundsheet) Pretty good day for a shoot, isn’t it...” I hope I do not live to see the day :)

tankfanatic SG

i agree on the need for tough training...but i dont think bullying will make soldier more tougher. For example US Ranger training were tough and it makes them mentally ready for war.....if you research enough you be surprise the training doesnt involve bullying at all. Tough training create tough soldier.

yeah maybe we can argue that the world have evolve , now warfare were simply about technology as the ultimate tool. So what if the enemy hiding in a bunker...can bomb is it?...what happen if the enemy still there? bomb more? how do we feel when the general who is irritated when everytime he 'click' hill 101 with his 'surgical bombing icon' in his laptop decided to click and drag your unit to rush the hill?

The american have been using technology to their advantage, yet they also knew the grunts were the one who are going to clean it up in the end, and they trained them tough.

aikchongtan SG

Let's arrive at a common definition on "bullying" here before we go any further. My definition - to intimidate. I mean to intimidate the soldiers with seemingly impossible tasks. I don't mean punching and kicking, I don't mean spitting into the open mouth of soldiers, I don't mean patching bullet holes on figure#11 with the small thumb-sized masking tape with our tongue. (yeh, my section kanna takan once in BMT because we screwed up on the details' scores when we were acting as butt-party. Range was not automated then.We just took it in jest. We were a crazy bunch). "Bullying" is a grey area. I can asked 2 sections to carry 2 assault boats overland with tight timing, all in the name of training. Some smart trainees will grumble:" Hey, why can't we get a transport to do the task. We are 3G army, you know". Let's push the boundary abit. What if I place a trainer on each boat to "motivate" the sections. Hey, I can justify by saying the trainers are "casualties" that the sections are moving to safety. When I was pioneer-trained, I carried my OC on a duck-board mat with 3 other trainees. Bullying??? To me now, just a challenge to overcome. I cursed silently back then. Your physical limit was pushed under controlled duress to know your breaking point. Come on, at the end of the day, nobody is going to kill you intentionally. The trainer and trainees were mostly aware about the safety boundaries. Of course, accident can happen but accident, by definition, are unpredictable. We can try to minimise the risk factors to acceptable level. That "acceptable" level is being challenged now.

The Americans had and have been fighting asymmetrical war. They have inexhaustible industrial capacity to fight their war. They tend to suceed in overwhelming their enemy with firepower. We don't have this industrial edge so we should not model ourselves wholesale on the American model.

I strongly believe that hand-to-hand combat is still an important infantry skill to hone. The Falkland conflict, Chenchya and etc provide amble examples. Sometime the fighting took place at range where you can see the white of your enemy's eyes.

aikchongtan SG

By the way, very fit soldiers are not necessarily tough effective soldier. A professional sportman may not make good soldier; likewise, a SAS soldier may not become a good professional sportman. No direct relation.

Simply put, at the company-level, a good effective soldier possess a level of disciplined-aggression that is different from the average professional sportman. The closest may be the professional Muay-Thai boxers. There must be a latent hunter instinct to outwit the enemy and apply the killer blow as well.

ray245 SG

Furthermore, we should remind ourself that our NS men are consripts. The reason some countries will tolerate tougher training is because their army is make up of Volunteers, people who are willingly to sign up for training and etc, and they are mentally prepared. After all, they get paid for the training, and if they want to slack around, they are simply wasting the tax payer's money.

Singapore NS is made up of people who may not want to be in the army at all. Some people simply isn't suited for an army life, moreover, they are not paid like those professional soldiers. It like saying everyone must be good in arts, sports and etc, which is impossible in real life. Some people are suited for other jobs as compared to being a soldier.

If the government continue to make NS training tough, the motivation of NS men to actually fight WILL be very low. Just because people has some military training does NOT mean they will be a good soldier and be WILLINGLY to fight.

I mean even in the past, you don't expect DIPLOMANTS to fight on a battlefield! And some times, a good diplomant is better and worth more than a soldier.

aikchongtan SG

How to raise and maintain sizeable and credible armed forces in Singapore without conscription?

In the meantime, please review section Is Conscription becoming Obsolete? in the following URL:

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/pointer/journals/2003/v29n4/features/feature2.html

I tend to believe that conscript soldier can be as effective as professional soldier. Let me quote the following paragraph "Historical performance of conscript armies shows that distinctions between short-service conscripts and volunteer professionals may be reduced or even disappear in wartime.

Moreover, it is recognized that improving the training and the quality of the officer corps also may reduce or even erase the differences between conscripts and volunteer professional soldiers.

This means that it is possible to improve the fighting capabilities of the conscripts" from the following URL http://ideas.repec.org/p/cem/doctra/271.html

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