NS nowadays is like scout camp

last SG · 2008-02-08T00:25:15+00:00

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/304472?page=4#posts-7895317 # rooki Look, Singapore would never have needed such a wasteful armed forces if its...

aikchongtan SG

How to raise and maintain sizeable and credible armed forces in Singapore without conscription?

In the meantime, please review section Is Conscription becoming Obsolete? in the following URL:

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/pointer/journals/2003/v29n4/features/feature2.html

I tend to believe that conscript soldier can be as effective as professional soldier. Let me quote the following paragraph "Historical performance of conscript armies shows that distinctions between short-service conscripts and volunteer professionals may be reduced or even disappear in wartime.

Moreover, it is recognized that improving the training and the quality of the officer corps also may reduce or even erase the differences between conscripts and volunteer professional soldiers.

This means that it is possible to improve the fighting capabilities of the conscripts" from the following URL http://ideas.repec.org/p/cem/doctra/271.html

ktk SG

conscript as pro as professional ? that guy must be siao.

Skye2 SG

The lifespan(career)of the average so-called `Pro' grunt in the US army and marine is what? your 2 years to 2 1/2 years NS full time la. Most leave after that once contract over. So. Not siao. the 2 years - 2 1/2 years NS full-time is a smart move actually.

Tancold SG

If the government continue to make NS training tough, the motivation of NS men to actually fight WILL be very low. Just because people has some military training does NOT mean they will be a good soldier and be WILLINGLY to fight.

I have to disagree with this point.

What we are stressing on is not whether the NS men is willing to fight? But more importantly is whether he knows how to fight when the s ** t hits the fan.

Ray have you been in a fight? Not war but a fist fight or punch up? If you are not conditioned before, you will definitely end up with a bloody nose. (so to be speak) The very first punch that land on you, your emotional feelings take over. You might get angry or you might get very scared. Your emotions take over and determines your next action.

Training enables you to control the situation. The tougher the training or conditioning, the better you are able to think and act accordingly. You are able to weather the stress and think straight. Ever heard the old saying from the instructors. "Shag rite!!! Cannot think properly rite???" It is conditioning. All those verbal abuses even without vugarities is to stir up those emotions. To make sure you are able to control them. And not to act like a blur f * * k with confused actions.

Skye2 SG

Long time ago in my camp, there is this gu niang who so scared to hold rifle. Kena F.. . like no one`s business on daily basis. Several months later, he is like pro and can shoot very well. And do it faster than some of us. We are too over-critical of our abilities sometimes. Typical Singaporeans. But it is also good that we are not over confident la.

monoslayer SG

i always believe in the following:

"The more you sweat in peacetime, the less you bleed during war."

Sepecat SG

One shud not equate ill treating soldiers to toughening them up.

Getting soldiers to do foolish and unnecessary things demoralises & does not make a better soldier. It only demotivates & the result is a sub standard soldier. Focusing on real training, whether physical , mental or technical shud be the emphasis.

Also the reality is that today's recruit is very different from 10 or 20 years ago in terms of physical & perhaps mental toughness. But isnt BMT supposed to build these up ? How it is done is for the Army to decide but the old ways are not effective nowadays. Proper training, whether physical or mental will still produce tough soldiers - one needs to define toughness and then work towards meeting the defined objectives. Better infrastructure such as good living quarters is a bonus for our guys - and why not - it is part of motivating our guys to become better soldiers.

On the positive side, the SAF is technologically superior to others in the region for the simple reason that our guys are highly educated. It is because of this that we can employ the latest & most effective weapons systems. More importantly, we are able to maintain them and ensure that they are operational at all times. You only need to see the percentage of high tech weapons such as fighter aircraft, submarines or electronic systems that are operational at any one time in the neighboring countries compared to ours. We take it for granted that we have well educated technicians and engineers to maintain our sophisticated weapons systems. We also take it for granted that we have highly educated people to operate them. Our neighbors have to train personnel from the bottom up to get these kind of people whereas we take them off from the polys & unis.

But , I aslo believe that is is comparatively easier to produce tough soldiers than to build a technologically superior infrastucture in this modern age of warfare. Only question is if we have the will to do so. So, let the guys and their parents complain, but if professional & effective methods are employed by the SAF, we will produce tough soldiers.

Only with technological superiority and tough soldiers can the SAF be a credible deterrent. But one must have more faith in the younger generation - they are up to the task but the SAF must also do its part - there are no compromises & tough training is required to produce tough soldiers.

tankee1981 SG

Gentlemen...i seriously do worry about our soldiers in the 3G Army....

Anyone here share my sentiments?

Skye2 SG

One shud not equate ill treating soldiers to toughening them up.

Very true. How does asking a 36 year old man with 3 kids run to a tree and kiss and hug it related to toughening?

Gentlemen...i seriously do worry about our soldiers in the 3G Army....

Anyone here share my sentiments?

It`s something big really. It is not just a shift in equipment and doctrines but a pyschological shift as well. So, it is bound to generate strong feelings; especially among the old guard. I really cannot qualify this but i think it happens in military evolution; technology and capability move in spurts rather than gradually. An example is gun-powder and how `it' brought down civilizations older than the user of the chemical.

I think we should wait and see how it pans out. While the SAF is moving very fast on such issues(as compared to everyone else in the region), they are not rushing it. This will give them time to compare and contrast with equally technology proficient militaries. Personally, I think this is where most modern militaries will be in the near future anyway. So, Im generally positive in the sense that this is the way we have to move forward. But doctrines and strategies will have to be fine-tuned along the way. Your views please...

Oh, by the way, Tankee, nice topic. Start a new thread will you?

Shotgun SG

With NS being cut from 2.5 years to 2 years, there is really very little time to train our conscript forces. And that is especially true when it comes to officer cadets who will spend much less time in unit than his men. If there is a question worth asking, its about the quality of SAF's leadership cadre at the Platoon / Coy level.

If there is a cause for NS to look like a boy scout camp, it would have to be examined at that level first. Upper echelon leadership would demand for intensive realistic training, while lower echelons (Section) level would have no say in it. If the platoon level leadership with the largest group of NSF officers do not know how to plan and provide for realistic training, you would find the probable cause. I'm not saying this is their fault, just that it might be their lack of experience at unit and at operational level.

Now imagine if you get these folks to "enforce" more intensive and realistic trainings... thats when you start getting complaints of back injuries due to excessive locker carrying. Did the people who come up with "Locker PT" really know the operational value of their exercise? Or did they only care about their intensity?

If you ask me, I won't make a platoon of men do push ups because they were late or bungled. I'd make them do section fire movement over and over and over and over again. Push ups can be saved for PT.

BangHong SG

1bomb can wipe out a country, whats with good combat skill, average knowledge will be good. we are talking about technology now, fighting combat skill dont really aid to fighting, unless is elite forces PESA ..

Tancold SG

Ya, But nobody around here has one.

When the s * * t hits the fan you can bet your ass its gonna be conventional warfare. So please stop being those stereotype type about "no need to fight la... we so small 1 bomb and we are gone" BS.

With people like that talking all this crap we don't need any opposition propaganda to do us in.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Last I checked nuclear warfare isn't really on the decks in this region, so what's with this "one bomb" thing except to demostrate a lack of actual proper knowledge.

Firstly if we do not have a credible military, we will have a lot less cards on the deck when dealing with other things that don't have much to do with the military at all. You can forget about Malaysia playing nice in the water deals, they can simply cut or uncut the tap as and when they please because they know that you don't really have any way to stop them from doing so.

You can forget about people bothering to go to international court to settle stuff about whoes rock belongs to who. They'll just plant their flag there and we'll suck thumb and whine.

When push comes to shove and you are a pushover then you can forget about a lot of things.

AlphaWhiskey02 SG

Hi all, I was a contract regular in the army before I ORDed in 2005. I was in a combat unit as well as in an instructional role. I think that the army has become more of a political arm more than a fighting arm (even though we must still continue our training).

NDP, Aerospace (with Black Knights), Army Open house etc are all part of National Education which show cases our military strengths as a form of deterrence. It is more of showing to neighbours that we do not give up a fight but rather we'll kick them hard.

As to the point on training standards dropping, I agree to the fact that physical training has reduced much as tekan sessions are actually "illegal". Rather the army is concentrating on learning the skills and understanding tactics by incorporating technology.

I'm not thinking that our army is definitely good but what I meant is that there are definitely 2 sides of the coin to everything. Seriously, at ground level, what we see is this much. We will not know what is the big picture at the top.

Short Ninja SG

Who do you think can kick a55 harder, a group of hardened but not so well equiped soldiers or a group of Chow Ah Kua armed to the teeth? During my time we just got big dicks & iron balls sticking out between our legs but the Modern SAF is a better figthing machine and will kick A55

Tancold SG

Issue is whether the Chow Ah Kua or Kuniang armed to the teeth or the old timers with big dicks & iron balls who is able to hold the line.

But again.... Kuniang's nowadays might be more mentally "indoctrinated" due to inexhuastible indoctrination through NE in secondary schools to NS. But again maybe not.

Aiyah.... as long as when the button is pressed, and everybody is ready to stand and fight to the end, kuniang or ah beng is good enough by me.

Shotgun SG

I suppose you guys were big on anti-abrasion lubricants and stayed far far away from magnets...?

eagle SG

Last I checked nuclear warfare isn't really on the decks in this region, so what's with this "one bomb" thing except to demostrate a lack of actual proper knowledge.

You can forget about people bothering to go to international court to settle stuff about whoes rock belongs to who. They'll just plant their flag there and we'll suck thumb and whine.

When push comes to shove and you are a pushover then you can forget about a lot of things.

Think Israel :D

Tancold SG

You mean we have the Bomb????? Lol just kidding....

But again..... you might never know.

CPL SG

Guys,

Be careful wat you wished for...

The only way to toughen up a military unit is to put it through an acid test of real combat. Now, if you look around the world, nowadays, where are the hot spots...? Iraq? Afghanistan? The War on Terror is real and SAF has been slowly but surely participated, via small contributions like medical teams, air refuelling etc. on the side of Uncle Sam. Now what is stopping Uncle from asking SAF to contribute more in terms of "boots on the ground"..??

If you have followed other military forums on the web etc...NATO "boots on the ground" contributors in Afghan is already stretched thin. They are currently pressing Germany to increase more troops to fight in the S. Afghan. Already 700 extra French troops are going to Afghan. So my point is, be prepared to see real combat in Afghan in the near future.

Good Luck!!

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