Can Fantail be armed?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

111 kph isn't terribly fast for a UAV, and of course if you are not alert then suck thumb lor, even a tonner can run you over... but as far as it comes for reasonably alert soldiers it will be quite hard to stick a UAV like that up into their face, they will see it and react.

BTW, the tangos getting fragged by Longbows or Predator were engaged way out of distance, and often at night. It didn't matter how alert they were, they simply had no way of knowing they were under observation and about to be attacked.

And I am not sure the SAF is too keen on crashing UAVs as missiles... who will sign the 1206?

Haha, crashing UAVs into people, we really should get back on the more normal topics!

lionnoisy SG

One bomblet,one kill-----be it anti--personnel and anti--armoured.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bomblet

1.The bomblet cab be released from Fantail and use gravity to fall on target.

It worth every single dollars to damage important assests.

Sometimes,it is not feasible to hit by long range weapons ,be it for political or other reasons.

u just need SOF to release Fantails near the targets.

2.if u think Fantail is too small,how about MAV?

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/303026

dunt be suprised if u can see it displayed in next week air show!!

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Your ideas are becoming funnier and more laughable. And you don’t seem to understand… nobody said your idea was unworkable as it is… it is just a plain bad idea like the German Maus tank, Russian Anti Tank Dogs or Japanese Banzai charges against American machine guns… those ideas could be implemented in war but they proved to be bad ones.

A single bullet can also kill or be anti-personnel or anti-armour… what matters is how you deliver it, there are good ways and bad ways… your way of delivering a single cluster munitions is just plain bad. Here’s why:

1)In order to release a cluster munitions by gravity the way you said Fantail has to be ABOVE the target. Tactically this already has several disadvantages compared to a conventional stand off strike with almost any other weapons system especially if you are hitting a sensitive target. You have to expose your non-expendable unit to flying over enemy space and risk it not only to enemy fire but system failure and just about any other general Murphy’s law of combat.

2)Your political or “other reasons” point makes absolutely no sense as well. What reasons are these? And how on earth can risking so much to INSERT an SOF team far behind enemy lines JUST to fly a UAV to send ONE bomblet up to the target be less risky or tactical then a long ranged missile or anti-material bullet?

In any case is an explosion caused by a cluster bomblet even considered a more “political” option?

What are your political reasons anyway? They seem imaginary and tacked on simply for you to justify your post. Come up with a detailed reason please and not just “political and other reasons”

Firstly if anything happens and Fantail is shot down, jammed or simply crashes… the enemy will have no problems figuring out from whom the UAV came from. There goes your “political” reason.

Secondly, how TATICAL is it CONSTANTLY transmitting behind enemy lines just to fly a UAV to drop a tiny bomb? It is obvious you are using the SOF just as a workhorse to carry Fantail for your desperate scheme to work, and I am telling you, it’s just a plain bad idea.

So many OTHER options exist for the SOF to destroy their targets as opposed to having to sacrifice a large part of their payload to carry a UAV with risk just to drop a single cluster bomb behind enemy lines…. In other words when so many other better options are around, it’s a case of “digging your nose with your hand around your head”.

They can lase their target for a PROPER long range strike that comes out of nowhere rather then a UAV to fly over and drop bomb. Also there are plenty of long range AMR options to them that can cause more damage at a safer distance with less risk to operator and equipment then your “lets carry a UAV behind enemy lines and drop a single cluster munitions because it’ll make ST look cool”.

3G Army is supposed to be a smart army, not an army that uses technology blindly.

Go learn from this:

http://world.guns.ru/sniper/sn55-e.htm

And last I checked MAV is BIGGER then Fantail, and a non-VTOL design as well.

Skye2 SG

111 km/h for a printer can still break many things in your body sia. UAVs are better used for recon and surveillance of course. But if they can be cheaply converted to cruise missiles, i feel that they will be useful which is what im talking about. But things like fan-tail, better dont waste on ramming like that unless really got no choice and the opportunity really golden. good day!!

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Nobody say cannot do, if you got a rock aND Osama is nearby and you have no other weapons, the same thing applies.

But it's another thing to start building your military ideas on rocks.

The funny thing about lionnoisy is that he misses the most obvious and effective uses for Fantail and comes up the most ridiculus, risky, and inefficent uses for it instead.

I seriously doubt the SAF is keen to use or risk it as a singular cluster delivery system, nor would the SOF really apperciate lugging it around just for some James Bond style action when so many other more mundane, and effective options exist.

As I pointed out in another thread... nothing is really stopping us from filling up our Terrex full of explosives and ramming it into enemy targets, it can ACTUALLY be done but that's not what it's really for... the same thing applies for Fantail. I'm sure ST can jury rig it to drop a cluster munition but I think they have much better ideas of getting cluster munitions onto the target.

What's lionnoisy going to suggest next? We keep our soldiers fed in the field by having it swarms of Fantails carry combat rations and dropping it on them?

As it stands I can envision us making a larger version of Fantail or our other UAVs to actually carry a lethal payload like missiles ala. Predator. But as it stands it's obvious the current Fantail isn't going to do much fighting with just 400 grams of payload.

Other options simply exist... you could use Fantail to lase out-of-sight targets while another fireteam with a top attack ATGM missile sends one on the way. But using Fantail itself to attack by ramming or dropping single cluster munitions? That's really scraping the bottom of the barrel...

arball SG

is it me... or does it seem that lionoisy always like kena shoot liddat?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Cos he always post dumb things mah... that one is not half bad... the funny part is that he tries to stick to his guns despite knowing next to nothing about military technology except anything that is made by ST or anything this is published in the media about ADF "blunders" and throw in the funny english to the mix.

But seriously, he has always been silent about if he has served his NS, or what he served as despite it having being asked several times... wonder what's up with that. But he does not strike me as a person who really knows that the grunt life is about, considering his outlook on military technology (locally made especially) seems somewhat fantasy and overly-optimistic, and that the average ADF soldier has the intelligence of the Battlefield 2 AI bots.

All in all he's a pretty funny character. Like one of those things that are nice to have around to relieve stress by having him entertain you with his overly-entu-Singapore-boleh stuff.

storywolf SG

The better option of arming a fantail - which is cheaper and more practical ! - just scrap explosive on Lionoisy and get him to charge into the enemy !!!

If failed and did not blow up - he can still kill the enemy - by tell them his funny military concept - the enemy will laugh to death ..... !!!

lionnoisy SG

The better option of arming a fantail - which is cheaper and more practical ! - just scrap explosive on Lionoisy and get him to charge into the enemy !!!

If failed and did not blow up - he can still kill the enemy - by tell them his funny military concept - the enemy will laugh to death ..... !!!

sorry lah.i am a thinker,not a doer.

Reports say Fantail cost $250k.I think is over estimated.

This is is much cheaper:

DSO's Extender drone as seen in AA 2006.

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/180245?page=1

DSO's Extender drone is adapted from a commercially available remote-controlled plane that costs about $1,000, a fraction of the price of specialised UAVs.
DSO added cameras to the Extender so soldiers can use it to survey unknown territory.
Mr Lim found that making different electronic components work together is a key challenge when adapting the small, hand-held UAV for military use. 'The components worked
fine individually, but when we put them together, they didn't work because the signals interfered with one another,' he said.
After some calculations and some trial and error, the sensors on the 1.6kg plane worked well enough for DSO to demonstrate it at a Singapore Armed Forces
urban warfare experiment last February....

Fantail 5000 as seen in AA2006.Bottom view.

small quantity of explosives can cause much damage if u know how to make a bomblets with Shaped Charge for anti--armour.Yes,if u know this stuff exist!!

2.Ok lah.Just crash Extender to a enemy fighter.Few thousand $$ can save SG soldiers life.It worth every single dollar!!

storywolf SG

Lionoisy - " i am a thinker,not a doer. .Just crash Extender to a enemy fighter.Few thousand $$ can save SG soldiers life.It worth every single dollar!!""

Thinker ? You do not even think at all !!!

By the way when they say commercially available remote-controlled plane they are talking about those hobbyist remote control toy planes those cost $1000.

Those are limited in range, speed , weight and attitude !!! Let not even talk about enemy jet planes - even enemy propeller planes will be so fast and higher then your remote-control toy planes even dream to reach.

Do not even suggest that it can fly all the way to enemy airfield to take out enemy planes. Why it does not have range - because with limit payload - it cannot carry enough fuel and equipment enough for it be able to control to be fly there !!!

Even if you penetrate to outside the airfield by ground !!! your $1000 toy does not have the payload or the pentration speed to knock out a plane sitting on the ground. Even if you did, it will take out just 1 plane..... only .... if i can bloody penetrate to the enemy airfield to that range - I may as well have carry a small bloody motar system which can take out more planes and bloody cheaper !!!

Again maybe we just broadcast your "thinker ideals" on air - maybe enemy pilots will laugh so much that that they lost control their planes and crashed !!!!!

arball SG

lol... shoot plane with that... mayb will have better chance of crashing it on the runway and hoping it FOD-s some jet... lols

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

sorry lah.i am a thinker,not a doer.

LOL you don't even think at all! What you do is the DREAM up of some idea, and then try very hard NOT to think about how it is actually going to fail, and fail badly.

small quantity of explosives can cause much damage if u know how to make a bomblets with Shaped Charge for anti--armour.Yes,if u know this stuff exist!!

This difference between you and me is this: unlike you I have fired shaped charged HEAT warheads and lobbed High Explosive Dual Purpose fragmentation warheads before and am quite familiar with what it can and cannot do.

And it's quite simple... what you are trying to imagine is that using keywords like FRAGMENTATION and SHAPED CHARGED will solve the glaring holes in your fantasy, but I can assure you I not only know these effects far better then you, I have trained in them and used them as well. And this is why your UAV idea will not work (or at the very least if we wanted to use our UAVs as an attack platform, it will not be done your way)

The shaped charge effect is not the solve-all to all your armour problems. It is just a way of focusing an explosion in order to penetrate armour but at the end of the day you still need the right amount of explosives to get the job done. To little and you will not penetrate the target.

And what's more it is not enough to just penetrate the target, you have to have sufficent after-armour effects in order to destroy it.

Go do the math... in a PROPER heavy antitank system, the shaped charge weapon itself can be up to 8 kilos or more. Cluster munitions rely on using multiple hits to disable their targets, for one hit is not usually sufficent to cause enough damage.

As for fragmentation have you fired a HEDP before? There is a reason why arty shells, which is a far larger fragmentation warhead are invented and are used.

2.Ok lah.Just crash Extender to a enemy fighter.Few thousand $$ can save SG soldiers life.It worth every single dollar!!

A single 5.56mm bullet, with good battlefield tatics is enough to take out an enemy fighter. For some reason you seem to envision swarms of UAVs used piecemeal against enemy targets.

Even one single arty shell which has FAR, FAR more explosives then your UAV idea in a fragmentation package, is cheaper, faster, more destructive, and easier then Extender.

Also, suicide UAVs are virtually useless against enemy fighters who have taken cover in a building shooting through potholes when a far cheaper 40mm grenade mailed through the opening can cause far more damage.

Also, you are asking our soldiers to carry a UAV, it's fuel, maintain it in the field and learn how to operate it, and all that just to send a small bit of explosives on a difficult to use, slow, expensive (relative to the explosives being sent), and vulnerable system with limited loiter time to the enemy?

If I was the enemy this is what I will do... the moment the UAVs are launched against my troops, I would simply jam them, home back to the source of the signals and call for arty fire or a straight on infanty assault against the positions.

In the meantime, our SAF soldiers listening to your idea will be quickly made hamburger.

What's more, you have to train the troops in the using of the UAV, account for failures (which is very common if you are out in the field with complex technology), account for the logistics (fuel and all that stuff), terrain (suicide UAV is useless in heavy jungle or urban overhead cover where a normal shell will simply plow through) and then manufacture enough of that stuff to actually make a difference... when already we can train the grunt to use a 40mm grenade launcher or work properly with fire support elements like mortar, airpower, and arty.

Note the main problem the UAV is trying to solve for the grunt is "what's over that hill?", not "how do i kill it?"... killing it is hardly the problem and we are more then equipped to do it PROPERLY.

Are you sure you are not really working for the enemy with all your "ideas"?

Do yourself a favour and let your fantasy die... the people in here not only know UAVs better then you, they also know how it can and cannot be used, and how it shall be used. We all know how UAVs can be used to attack (and that is in the proper UCAV role), but for some reason you don't seem to and keep insisting on a rather inpratical form of combat that seems to think that the enemy is as smart as Battlefield 2 bots.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

LOL, the whole question is... why crash UAVs when I can use it to watch my butt when I can take out far more targets with a anti-material sniper rifle. The UAV isn't really light to carry, we can only bring one of it per team, is not that easy to operate, and works far better as an eye in the sky.

Lionnoisy' style of "waging" war is kinda like a fighter who trains in using his groin to attack and block blows from the enemy while forgetting all about his fists and feet.

But I am not really surprised... are you?

lionnoisy SG

Is there any similiar UAV with the size so small?I dunt think so!!

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Is there any similiar UAV with the size so small?I dunt think so!!

If you want to avoid the issue at the very least don't try to post meaningless posts... it just shows that you lack intellectual intergity, or basic comprehension skills.

The question is do you think it's a good idea for the SAF to crash such things into people and equipment, something that you have been pushing for since this whole sorry thread started, a thread that no doubt exposed you lack of understanding on most things even most basic book camp.

Is there any lionnoisy with the english skill that can finish this book? I dunt think so!!

As to answer your question on if there's any other UAV with the size so small:

All smaller then Fantail.... and made by many other countries.

So please tooting our horn about Fantail, you are disgracing our country with your lack of understanding of even our OWN equipment.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

hmmm... 9 days without any reply after his:

Is there any similiar UAV with the size so small?I dunt think so!!

lionnoisy is suddenly not so noisy eh?

lol, pwnage...

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

hmmm... 9 days without any reply after his:

Is there any similiar UAV with the size so small?I dunt think so!!

lionnoisy is suddenly not so noisy eh?

lol, pwnage...

joce_ATG SG

hmm singapore tyrannosaur, any chance that fantail can be fitted with sniper capabilities? say one shot one target? it seems silent enough to approach close enough, with its vortex shielded by the side skirts. perhaps a light gun can be fitted if it doesnt weigh too much? fantail seems much more manuverable and versatile if u ask me. perfect for skimming along vegetation

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Not with the way it currently is... 400 grams is just too small a payload to heft a robot sniper system of any caliber. A sniper rifle typically weights up to 10 times that.

Robot sniper systems do exist, and they shoot far better then any existing sniper. But being a sniper involves more then just shooting- you have to get to the target, stay hidden and all that stuff.

As for if I think they will ever mount sniper systems on UAVs... not the unguided form I think... missiles are simply more versitile and reliable (in terms of hitting stuff after being launched from an airborne platform), and in many ways the current application of Predator armed with hellfires in Iraq/Afganistan to take out unsuspecting targets is probably what we could call high-tech sniping.

storywolf SG

Sniper capabilities ? 1st fantail can never be capable of it !!!

1) payload - too heavy as something that can shoot bullet to a certain distance of at least 100m is too heavy for it.
2)Also for firing a bullet and wanting it to fly over 100m - you need a barrel of certain length which will affect the flight of it.
3) it is too unstable in flight to to aim to shoot.
4) frankly with sniper rifle able to handle 1KM shoots nowadays... you do not need something to fly that close. If the vegetation is that thick , fantail also cannot help much.

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