Western mindset on taiwan/china situation

ray243 SG

In most westerners mindset, they have hardly a single clue about what is really going on in the straits and what harm it will cause. Most military novels revolve around the invasion of taiwan and nothing is said about the negative effect( other than china loss) like the economy of east asia or USA itself.

They view taiwan indepedence as a good thing, as it would mean democracy can withstand against communism. Some view that almost all countries will support the idea, like NATO.

They hardly had a idea about the Pan-blue party of taiwan and most of them thought the whole of taiwan support indepedence. I hate it how they love to play the situation as a basic of their story.

I've heard a worst part, saying that taiwan should join USA as a state and hence given full protection by the US military.

Do you agree?

LazerLordz SG

And your point is that we should cheer happily that a state that has been de facto independant, should be given back to a larger entity that has no claim over this?

Sorry.I'm not an American, but the facts tell me that Taiwan should remain as it is.If they want to reunify, it should be of their own choice, NOT China's decision.

latterrain SG

If you look at the history of Taiwan, u should know that Taiwan was a land that was ceded to the Dutch during the Ming dynasty. China still have a claim over Taiwan based on the historical roots and therefore entitled over taiwan.
The British return Hong Kong back to China because they can deny the historical roots that China has.

While the western looks at Taiwan, they will have the same mindset over the rule of China over Taiwan as what China has over Hong Kong.
Basically, the Amercian cannot do anything if China wants to regain Taiwan.
It is only a matter of time. China is a domineering force which will overtake Amercian in the next few years. America greatest enemy at the moment is not China but Terrorism. You can observe that terrorism have not set it feet on chinese ground because it is a country where terrorism is not be tolerated.

Btw, Taiwanese are still chinese. You can deny the fact that when a war breaks out between America and China, where will they stand. The answer is quite obvious.

Shotgun SG

But this whole war on terror may have already released to them enough funding and OIL to keep ahead of China.

Look at US forces, they have almost a strangle hold on oil in the middle east alr.

MobyDog SG

After spending years on their forums.. this is what I gather.

1) They do not care .. only that it should not go to the communist for whatever reason.

2) Most of them are History and Geographically inept.. especially the Americans (not all, but majority)

3) Many Americans dish out the San Francisco Peace Treaty, which both ROC and PRC are not signatories, and says that Taiwan is terra nullius, and base on this treaty the Taiwanese are only granted temporary occupaction, and the US has outright Administrative rights.. therefore taiwan in a way belongs to US. Even though ROC is the one who accepted the Japanese surrender and the US did not even step foot on Taiwan. running contary to The Portdam ( 1945 ) and Cairo Declaration (1943) of which all Allies are signatories. BTW the peace treaty was drafted during the Korean War in 1951, which the Amereican wanted taiwan as an "unsinkable Aircraft carrier".. the intention is clear.. It is an American land grab attempt... idiots

4) they do not care that both taiwan and china are still in civil war.. meaning it is an internal matter.

5) They do not care that the ROC is the ruler of china once.

6) Taiwan is the trump card to destablise China economical growth, if war breaks up. Chinese killing Chinese.

7) Taiwanese is not Chinese. then again 80% of taiwanese are not original inhabitants of Formosa.

Cool see point one.

LazerLordz SG

Well, that was certainly amusing.

I only hold the view that reunification should be a mutually agreeable decision.If Taiwan decides to stay independant, China has no right to take it over by force.

Regardless of the inept geographic knowledge of a few angry white men.. Rolling Eyes

fedor86 SG

To me, I see Taiwan as the "aggressor" now. They don't seem to want peace with China. They keep claiming that China is massing an huge array of weapons to attack them bla bla bla. They even reject China's gift of 2 pandas.

Taiwan seems to be trying to piss China off. Few months ago they still go abolish the don't know what unification board. Add oil to fire only.

China is probably planning to regain Taiwan in a more "legit" way by winning the hearts of the people. Ah bian scared he lose keep on accusing China this China that. Freaking hum, still talk what democracy.

aknoo123 SG

the way i see it, taiwan belongs to china, despite what ever ah bian is trying to do within is territory, we cannot ignore the fact that there is a strong pro-unification party within taiwan. now we have ma ying-jeou and lien chan banding together against the forces of green, i would say the 2008 elections results will be a determining factor of taiwan’s policy towards china. over the years, china has been building up a credible military and walked towards a new generation army. its navy is rapidly transforming from a ‘brown water’ navy towards a ‘blue water’ one like what the russians and americans are having.. granted their military tech may be abt a decade or two behind US but the rapid growth in its defence industry has allowed china to grow and catch up with the westerner. while the western society may have a skewed mindset towards the tension within the taiwan striats, i would think that if ever a war really breaks out, the aid of the US will not be so forthcoming. now given china’s military strength, even if US is to help taiwan, they may win, but suffer enough casualities to hurt the public opinion back in the States. so what i tink is that while they may act concerned, who rules taiwan ultimately makes no difference to the west. cuz no matter be in ah bian in power or is it the CCP, the businesses in taiwan will still grow since the CCP is now more open towards capitalism and even harnesses its power to feature in its philosophy of “socialism with chinese characteristics” so when it comes to interests, the western society is not really concerned abt the issue. as a root to all foreign policy, interests are paramount and i would say, that in event of a merger or whatever, the interests of these western powers are not going to be dramatically affected, thus western authors and politicians would thus give a more neutral stance regarding china and taiwan

LazerLordz SG

So you support a Chinese invasion of Taiwan to reclaim it if diplomacy fails?

^Delta^ SG

The Taiwanese politicians should quit bickering amongst themselves and purchase the proposed US arms package to beef up their armed forces. The way I see it, the Taiwanese politicians are just concerned about their own interests, turning their back on a looming Chinese military threat.

To repel a full scale Chinese invasion, the above arms package would not suffice on its own. More advanced weapons would be needed.

Hopefully the Taiwanese would unite and repel this threat to the whole of SEA.

FG42 SG

I will want to see the mainland China be regained by the KuoMinTang once again. They are the legitimate ruler of Republic of China. Communist are just bandits!!!

Had the communist China not won the war with America and UN in Korea, the war with India and the war with USSR and the war with Vietnam, I doubt any overseas Chinese like us would support China, let alone speaking anything good about them.

The eight years war against the imperial Japanese in WW2 were actually fought by the KuoMinTang soldiers. The communist army almost did nothing but assasinated some top KuoMinTang generals who fought bravely against the imperial Japanese army in WW2.

Shotgun SG

Taiwan belongs to China. If the Taiwanese wants to migrate to their Motherland USA, so be it. But the territory itself is Chinese.

Honestly, if you look at things... it has often been the Taiwanese politicians that have been triggering or attempting to trigger hostile reactions from the mainland. If its not ah bian its the previous d!ckhead.

Its kinda like, I kachiau u until u dulans, den u wack me, and I act poor thing and kena bullied. Stupid lar. Chinese should not kill Chinese.

|-|05| SG

I really beg to differ, terrorist is a major problem in it's western mainly muslim regions.The areas bordering all the former soviet repblics. People just seldom hear of it because the Chinese press is government controlled.

The British leased Hong Kong for 99 years from the Chinese after the 2nd opium wars under the Convention of Peking. Which also saw China cede parts of outer manchuria to Russia. I'm not sure what the French got, but they signed it too.
Same think with Macau and Portugal.

The Americans and NATO can actually do ALOT should China want to invade Taiwan. What you may ask?? For one, trade sanctions can and will bring China to her knees. Why? because it's a net exporter. Exports make up a huge part of it's GDP.Stop trade and you stop the people from having trade. The rest of the world can pick up the slack. Though economically it'd be bad for everyone. It's worse off for China.
Next, with the Chinese fleet and Airforce fully occupied with defending the taiwan straits to safeguard it's troops and logistical lines, the US and whoever doesnt like China can simply start cutting off China's oil.

The US can also deploy some 7 Aircraft carrier battle groups into the region and it's Airforce leaving China's hold on the Taiwan straits shakey at best. Even if they dont, those ships and planes can start blasting other parts of China or enforcing a blockade.

Anyway, Taiwan is part of China and the people are Chinese. I see no reason why they shld not reunify. Honestly the might go the German way. Wait for China to turn Democratic and then rejoin. Heh

sgdiehard SG

Your para 3 is most interesting and informative.

Actually, the difference between the ordinary Taiwanese and the mainlanders are not much more than among the mainlanders from different provinces. Culturally and economically they are accepting one another, although there is still the fight in the use of traditional or simplified chinese characters. To almost all the chinese I met, mainlanders, hongkongers, taiwanese (wai shen, ben shen and the aborigines) and the ABC, status quo is what everybody wants. Reunification would be natural but take time, or unless there were major changes to the politics on both sides.

The common westerners are curious but mostly ignorant about China. They listen to a Singaporean chinese and they think they understand the mainlanders, they make friends with the hongkongers and they think they know taiwanese. Generally europeans learn about things chinese with no preconceived ideas, American always ask why american ways cannot be accepted. But leave the politicians out of this and the gathering of the people from different parts of the world in China is very interesting.

Problem starts when an american starts thinking that since china is so big and the cantonese are different from the shanghainese so Guangzhou should merge with Hong Kong to become an independent country and Fujian should merge with Taiwan.....

One thing is certain, westerners, especially the americans, do not want to understand and do not recognise history, the chinese history. Because in the history, many westerners have their troops in China robbing and raping.
Its kind of difficult for them to acknowledge that they have their ugly side in China history.

LazerLordz SG

Point taken to note that the ROC indeed accepted the surrender of the Japanese.

Like it or not, the status quo currently still means that China has no legal right to force reunification on Taiwan, especially through force.

MobyDog SG

I do not agree...

Do you agree that they are still technically under civil war ? If so, under international law they cannot declare Independence, because it is deemed a domestic matter. And the use of force is legal. Check it out.

Even though ROC accepted the Japanese surrender in 1945, ROC is the legimate Ruler representing China then. They lost the China in the civil war in 1949 to PRC, like all regime changes that occurred the world over thru History, making PRC the legitmate ruler of China. . which includes Taiwan.

YaoRockets SG

that's the dumbest crap I ever heard here.

if ROC accepted jap surrender, that made them once legitimate ruler of the whole china. And PRC as the current ruler of china has very legal right to unify taiwan, by forece if necessary. That's what a country's army are for, defending the land.

To PRC the status quo means no de jure independence, to Taiwan the status quo means de facto independence, to both side the status quo means peace and ecconomical integration. Never does anywhere does it say China has no legal right to forced reunification.

moreover, it's not up to some half wit singaporean on net to decide what's legal or not (how laughable it is); on the contrary, the newly passed anti-secession law in china made it very clear that forced reunification is mandatory if all peaceful means are exhausted and failed.

Ito_^ SG

let taiwanese choose without influence from china or usa.

dats the ideal.

impossible.

LazerLordz SG

Sad.

Reunification is a marvellous idea, but it must be done with the agreement of both sides.I am not for military reunification and any bloodshed that is unnecessarily. Don't even for once think that the PRC has the moral and ethical right to reunify by invasion, just because they've covered their arse through an anti-secession law, which is still grey in many aspects.This is simply offensive to me personally, what others feel, is up to them.

And if you have to resort to calling names, it merely shows how insecure you are. Rolling Eyes You may call me a half-wit if that satisfies your inordinate lack of happiness in your existence, but still I refuse to recognise your NPC's right to implement a law that is a naked excuse for legalised invasion and occupation of an unwilling territory.

So, what are you gonna do about it eh?What ARE you going to do instead of name-calling?There's a lot of it going on up North, and this sort of behavior definitely "sia suay" the rest of the Chinese diaspora.Don't for once belie your ignorance by expecting others to believe like you do.

Shotgun SG

As much as I am for the reunification of the China, I am against a military solution. It would really be very sad to see Chinese killing Chinese. If that ever happens, I'd blame the yanks as much as I would blame both ROC and PRC for playing into yankee hands. Such a confrontation between PRC and ROC would only serve to destabilise the region, and economically hamper China's growth.

And YaoRockets, if u dun like Singaporeans, do us a favor and phark off from these forums. We dun need half-wit "Chinese" who calls Singaporeans half-wit.