Western mindset on taiwan/china situation

MobyDog SG

LazerLordz, you know I will not call you names without provocations .. Right ? Very Happy

Nobody has said that they do not support and favour a peaceful reunification. But look at it this way, military option is only the last resort and the ball is on Taiwan court. China, Actually don't even need to enact the Anti-succession law, because they are still technically under civil war, and that there were no call for Truce, and cease-fire, and no Armistice was ever signed (Unlike the Korean Situation.) So there is actually no grey area.

Though you may feel offended that it is not up to the Taiwanese. But don't you think that it is simply not just a Taiwanese problem ? On the another aspect, China also has to look at their own defense and soveriegnty issues. An Independent Taiwan, could well station a historically opposing military power right at china's vital shipping lanes and at their border doorstep - 'USA'. Should this occur, chances is cross straits tension will persist. This time, It would certainly be US's interest play it up to curb China's growing economical prominience. Another war will be bliss for them... of course they won't say it so. The usaul tactic is to force a hand and say "There ! you see, I told you so.. China is threatening Taiwan.. an Independent and Democratic Soveriegn state", "Freedom" and other load of usual Crap!

Consider this...

Shotgun SG

Okay, what about this? Do you agree that the US should intervene should PRC decides to exercise military reunification?

Personally, I feel that intervention by UN or US would be necessarily to prevent a military reunification. Now, its not the unification I am against, but the military option. Why should the Taiwanese suffer from missile attacks etc, for reunification? In fact, a military attack on Taiwan would only bring about international condemnation upon China.

MobyDog SG

Well, think of it this way.

If China has not done such posturing, would Taiwan then be enbolden to declare Independence already ? I think they would have. And thus, China would have under taken a military option long ago, wouldn't it ? Ther will not be any Status quo to talk about.

Of course, it would be easily then said, Since most of us are not in China position. As many has said, if the US are in the same position as china/Taiwan, what would they have done ? Need no imagination.

If China is really serious in militarily take over in Taiwan. I seriously doubt US or UN, can defend Taiwan successfully or in time. Human toil will be serious. You cannot imagine the need to defend one's soveriegnty when the times comes. One cannot imagine the resolve of China to gain back national properties. Since the 8 nation plundering.

There has been many discussion done in the "what if" senario, and the US always will win. But in reality, without an air base and logistic support, that is easilier said then done. CVGs need time to assemble, technological advantage will also need basic logistic support to function. CVN are great, but also vunerable, especially Fuel, in a intense situation, CVN has only a days fuel. Then the will have all the launching and recovering sorties, and still need to be out of harms way. All the hype about the CVG impentratable defence is nonsense - "propaganda". Not say there are useless, but overrated. You only need 8 "sunburn to come their way" to mess things up. Then there are the SSN and SSKs. The PLA & PLAN invasion mostly likely be sudden and intense. And of course I'm not saying taiwanese defense are unless and weak. But even if the China's invasion fails, economically Taiwan will be trashed and in ruins. And suddenly, US will be the Devil advocate in their own interest.. as usual. Only China and Taiwan are the loser.

I'm not advocating a force reunification, but situation sometimes forced it's own hands. The US really like to divide and mess up people's lives.

Besides, if you go into the legal aspect. I assure you I will win, because I have done intensive arguments with arrogant Americans and some Taiwanese. Thus I have tons of facts by now.

sgdiehard SG

While we singaporean recognise that the China/Taiwan issue is a domestic issue within China, we are certain that any cross straits military conflict will destablize Asia and affect everybody in the region. If China, the PRC were to take the first step, unprovoked in starting a military conflict, be assured that nobody will be on your side, not singapore.

We are not under your Anti secession law, but if the wrong use of that law affects innocents outsiders, the law loses its morale authority. You may think that China has every right for a force reunification, in reality you will need to show the world that indeed all peaceful means are exhausted and failed. To do that PRC may need a little wit from Singaporean in time to come.

Don't be too quick in judging singaporean. Mr. Green

LazerLordz SG

Well, I can say this is one point of view that most will subscribe to.

Mobydog, don't worry.Those are my personal viewpoints, so you don't have to be worried, as I don't think I will be in any position to influence cross-straits matters anytime soon Laughing

Regardless of American posturing, the world will not stand and watch a unprovoked Chinese invasion, and rest assured Singapore will not condone such an act either.In our case, we need a strong American engagement in our region for our own self-interest.

It's something that we cannot do without, and yet we also cannot lean too much on them.But at the micro level, any action, be it legal or illegal, that affects Singapore adversely in a war, is akin to hostilities, in our eyes.You'd think we cheer the PRC on?No.

If it's the Taiwanese, I don't think we would cheer them on either.Best case scenario would be a confederation with Taiwanese self-rule.

LazerLordz SG

MobyDog SG

Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Regardless of American posturing, the world will not stand and watch a unprovoked Chinese invasion, and rest assured Singapore will not condone such an act either.In our case, we need a strong American engagement in our region for our own self-interest.

It's something that we cannot do without, and yet we also cannot lean too much on them.But at the micro level, any action, be it legal or illegal, that affects Singapore adversely in a war, is akin to hostilities, in our eyes.You'd think we cheer the PRC on?No.

If it's the Taiwanese, I don't think we would cheer them on either.Best case scenario would be a confederation with Taiwanese self-rule.

I don't think US will like that at all.

What is your idea of "unprovoked" action anyway ?

Whether the world will stand for an unprovoked PLA invasion remains to be seen. (Should it happen) I suspect they may "Cow Bei Cow Bu", but face it, the world do respect power, money and aggression. Look at the US (Iraq) invasion, nearly everything about it is base on lies. But what did the world do ? Do you know that the US has 73 world intervention (regime changes and covert ops) for the past 50 yrs ?

Believe me US interest has no friends, when you stop supporting or no longer useful and all the ugly US facades appear. US has renegaded many puppets and allies alike.

LazerLordz SG

Well, better the lesser evil than a Communist world if the US had not done those apparently "tasteless" 73 regime changes that you speak of.We live in the real world, and that is currently, you and I, our lives have been due to whatever the US has influenced, killed or what-not in the world.

Realpolitik.Right now, we are useful to the US.However, we spread our wings to secure alliances and friendships to counterweight any predominant power which may have the potential to swing us off-course, e.g with that idiot Bush in power at the moment.. things are not looking good.No one is denying that America is a pragmatic power, the very same as our tiny little island.No permanent friends, only permanent interests.

Still, we cannot afford to deal in theories and principles too much in global politics.Love it or hate it, we have to accept that the last 50 years under American supremacy is still better than the alternative.Would you rather have Communism triumph?

Granted, they have screwed around here and there, and you think we have not screwed with other nations.Look carefully beyond the surface, and you will see the web that Singapore has stretched out around the world.We are not as helpless as common impressions would have us believe.

"Unprovoked" Unilateral Chinese military action against a non-military action by Taiwan. This is my heartfelt stand.Why so?Believe it or not, Singapore is like Taiwan, held to the world by international law, the only difference being actualised independance versus de jure independance in a disputed status of negated sovereignty.Should China be allowed to retake Taiwan unilaterally, it will open up a can of worms in the international arena, and lead to a dangerous precedent of historical claims by larger nations over smaller, current autonomous/independant territories.

Even if Singapore is not under threat of this scenario, do we have the diplomatic gumption or ammunition to even support this course of Action?Logic will dictate we will oppose such an action when push comes to shove.The new UN regime is more interventionist, and there is a serious need for greater global cooperation against unilateral action against a democratically elected government of a territory without legitimate claim of self-defense.

Yeah sure, self-defense against a future rallying declaration of independance.In any case, before they determine their status of sovereignty, there's still that niggling matter of a armstice to be signed and civil war ceased.The amount of goodwill that PRC would inevitably get in the international arena should they renounce the unilateral use of force as a first response against peaceful Taiwanese independance, is worth more than the bloodshed that any war or pre-emptive occupation will surely bring.

Common sense and brotherhood through peace and choice should be allowed their day in the sun, not just force.

So, should we stomach another repeat of the Timorese annexation?I think not.

MobyDog SG

1) Well, first of all, only about 65% of the intervention is about communism.

2) If International Law is concern, Taiwan cannot declare independence.. that itself is a provocation to China. Then again as I say They are still in Civil War.

3) Should China retake Taiwan unilaterally, situation as you describe is different from that around. Name another nation which has this situation.

4) Taiwan is not defenseless at all....

The amount of goodwill that PRC would inevitably get in the international arena should they renounce the unilateral use of force as a first response against peaceful Taiwanese independance, is worth more than the bloodshed that any war or pre-emptive occupation will surely bring.

Initial goodwill to PRC will be as good as it last. I tell you, at the later stage, it would not change a thing (as cross-straits tension is concern)

tvdog SG

All I want to add is that if Taiwanese want to be taken seriously, why did they vote for Chen Sui Bian?

TWICE!!!

He looks like a Smurf, and sounds like a bumpkin. And has made some pretty stupid moves to solidify this opinion.

But sometimes, I think the Taiwanese deserves him. Many Taiwanese I met can be annoyingly a.n.a.l. Especially the men. The women are OK. Very Happy

Blueray SG

I absolutely agree with u when u said that most westerners have little idea about reality of the straits. Western media always love to cite Taiwan as a role model for China to follow but ever since Ah Bian came to power, everything is going downhill for Taiwan( I do mean everything). Taiwan's economy is shrinking and unemployment rate is soaring. As a result, crime rate is also skyrocketing. Read here:

http://th.gio.gov.tw/show.cfm?news_id=8615

High unemployment rate also resulted in high suicide rate:

http://www.asianpacificpost.com/portal2/4028818208a0ac650108c0e0bbc5010f_Credit_card_slaves_turn_to_suicide_and_crime.do.html

As a result, more and more Taiwanese are losing confidence in the current administration and are migrating elsewhere. Mainland China, Canada, Australia and the USA are the favourite destinations for emigrating taiwanese. Here's an article about Taiwanese migrating to Shanghai:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A14284-2001Apr27?language=printer

The Taiwanese have more confidence in mainland china than their own country and would rather migrate there instead.

Blueray SG

2 years later, taiwan will have its presidential elections. Based on the fact that the Democratic Progressive Party(DPP) has made a mess out of Taiwan, I can safely say that the KMT will definitely win.

National and personal debts in Taiwan have soared at an alarming rate in recent years. In fact in the recent world economic forum Taiwan is said to have accumulated the second largest sum of national debts in the world just behind Bangladesh!

Whether or not KMT can repair all the damage caused by DPP remains to be seen.

Blueray SG

I absolutely agree with what u say. The truth is that the USA is responsible for more atrocities in this world than any other country. Here is a detailed website showcasing all the US interventions and altrocities for the past century:

http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html

The most disturbing about the United States is their media. They are constantly spinning lies about human rights violations in other countries.

We heard a lot from the western media about June 4 Tiananmen massacre. But the truth is totally different. Here's an interesting article about the June 4 incident:

http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/article.asp?parentid=14621

Here's another interesting article about the Sino- Indian War:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2002/oct/24chin.htm

Here is another article about the motives behind western lies:

http://taiwansecurity.org/News/2005/JT-300505.htm

Let me make myself clear that I have nothing against America but to make up lies about other countries is downright childish.
Unfortunately nowadays even western governments like the USA is also exhibiting the same childish characteristics. If anyone wishes to listen, I am willing to explain.

lionnoisy SG

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