Steyr rifles to be phased out

last SG · 2006-04-27T10:41:25+00:00

I'm surprised that someone in SAF was actually dumb enough to display a live LAW... I guess common sense isn't common until something uncommonly bad enough...

Si Geena SG

It's simple. It's a top-down decision. The Minister of Defence, Datuk Najib, instructed SME to contact Colt and arrange for it.

The top brass who had to support this decision had made the visit to Colt shortly after that. Everything was done in a rather short fashion so that the MOU could be signed during the DSA.

That's my take on it.

tvdog SG

This early pic is from Modern Firearms (http://world.guns.ru/assault/as31-e.htm) and it shows the SAR-21 with a M-16 STANAG mag. But if you ask any SAR-21 user, they will tell you otherwise. The production SAR-21 CANNOT accept a M-16 mag. This quote from Modern Firearms confirms it:

"The SAR-21 is fed using proprietary 30-rounds box magazines, made from the translucent plastic."

The SAR-21 iron sights are good probably for under 10m. And as reported by many users, the lens fog.

The LAD is useless cos in the dark where you can't see your target, the LAD doesn't help as all you'll see is your red dot - it doesn't illuminate the target. And with a platoon of excited folks all pressing the LAD at the potential target, how can you tell which of the 30 red dots is yours? And of course, as everyone already said, it's a bullet magnet.

I have never heard of Israelis sawing the barrel of the CAR-15. But in case you haven't heard, the Tavor is not popular with the IDF.

The bullpup layout presents many problems including a complicated trigger system which results in a bad trigger pull - also reported by many SAR-21 users. Apparently, the SAR-21 has one of the best trigger pull for bullpups, but still no comparison to conventional one like the M-16. So you can imagine the Steyr AUG must be quite nasty.

And also, the weapon is not ergonomically friendly like the M-16. The switches are all in awkward places.

LazerLordz SG

Yes, with regards to Tvdog, the SAR21 latest production runs are equipped with the Mil-Spec 1913 rails, and export versions are STANMAG compatible.

Disclaimer : When they will be ops deployed into the SAF, is not certain for sure.Me, personally I love my AR-15 carbine.

Meia Gisborn SG

I'm just speculating here, but if they shortened the barrel without making commensurate changes to the gas system (in particular, the length of the gas tube), malfunctions can and will occur (most usually in the form of a short-cycling bolt carrier that fails to go back far enough to strip a new round from the magazine).

The length of the gas tube has to be matched to the length of the barrel to ensure that the gas system has enough pressure to completely cycle the bolt carrier. Shortening the barrel reduces the amount of pressure the gas system can tap, and this has to be compensated for by reducing the length of the gas tube to keep the pressure up.

Perhaps Lazerlordz can chime in and offer a more detailed explanation. Very Happy

|-|05| SG

The PIAT is very different from the Panzerfaust. It's closer to the Panzercheck. The former being much like a LAW and the latter today's ATGM. Even if both were unguided. The PIAT and Panzercheck were heavier reload able weapons usually used in teams while the Panzerfaust was a 1 time use squad lvl AT weap.

Anyway having a harder to squeeze trigger doesnt affect firepower as much as it affects responds time.....

Back on topic. Yea it does seem like a step back. I mean the M4 is based on an aging design and i believe the US is aready waiting to replace it....Though with the XM8 canned i'm not sure if they will replace it.
i guess like someone said, they rushed it for their Defence exhibition.Possibly some political thing again.....sucks for them

mto11 SG

just my 2cents worth, e LAD is a very effective tool,esp if fibua. my frens n i managed to shoot a cylume stick with the lad during a live firing for fibua..whole room filled with the glowing liquid..haha..shiok man

LazerLordz SG

it's not as if the M4 has an adjustable bolt to regulate the gas pressure. you're right in saying that the length of the gas tube has to match the length of the barrel, but shortening the gas tube will increase the pressure too, and the bolt carrier mech might wear out?

I'll defer to you these days on the workings of a mechanism, I'm getting rusty Wink

Raptor937 SG

I have never heard of Israelis sawing the barrel of the CAR-15. But in case you haven't heard, the Tavor is not popular with the IDF.

Nope I've never heard an Israeli say that he hates the Tavor, but the one I heard said that he liked them.

The bullpup layout presents many problems including a complicated trigger system which results in a bad trigger pull - also reported by many SAR-21 users. Apparently, the SAR-21 has one of the best trigger pull for bullpups, but still no comparison to conventional one like the M-16. So you can imagine the Steyr AUG must be quite nasty.

What is so complicated about a simple linkage?

It is a combat rifle not a match rifle. Why do you need such a good trigger pull for?

Its good enough for me.

The LAD is useless cos in the dark where you can't see your target, the LAD doesn't help as all you'll see is your red dot - it doesn't illuminate the target. And with a platoon of excited folks all pressing the LAD at the potential target, how can you tell which of the 30 red dots is yours? And of course, as everyone already said, it's a bullet magnet.

You might want to tell the Yanks that their PAQs are making them bullet magnets.

Guess their M4s must be too light hence they are mounting them.

No iron sights.

American soldiers and Marines are mounting ACOGs, EOTechs, AimPoints on their rifles.

And many of them using optics have no rear iron sight on their rifles.

Why would anyone want to mount an optics onto a combat rifle?
Quite simple really you can't hit what you can't see.

And the SAR21 has back up iron sights if you some how manage to break the optic.

Too heavy.

SAR21 - 4 kg with magazine
SIG 550 - 4.05 kg w/o magazine
G36 - 3.6 kg w/o magazine
AUG - 3.8 kg w/o magazine

The Steyr has no rails either, and because it is made under license they can't add modifications.

Neutral

Anyway, the advantages of the M4 is that it has all the rails so that you can put stuff on it like a christmas trees, this not only has obvious tactical advantages but will also make the MAF look more modern.

So what do you want to mount on those rails?

Optics?
LAD?

People hate bullpups for the most irrartional reasons.

tripwire SG

i did read somewhere that the M4 effective range is about 350m while that of the
SAR21 is about 850m, due to the shorter M4 barrel length compare to the SAR21

if so... given the effective range figures above... would it imply that the M4 "firepower" is actually lower then the SAR21, because it does not enjoy a higher spin rate which is avaliable to the SAR21 with longer barrel?

MobyDog SG

Raptor937,

An excellent post,

however the SAR21 bullpup does have it's problems.. mainly the reloading timing, due in part the release level of the mag, and the charging handle. In intense battle.. it does pose some problems.

The integrated scope fogging is also a problem... usually lead to BER status.. if needed repair.

The safety catch is in the rear......

LazerLordz SG

Originally posted by MobyDog:
[b]Raptor937,

An excellent post,

however the SAR21 bullpup does have it's problems.. mainly the reloading timing, due in part the release level of the mag, and the charging handle. In intense battle.. it does pose some problems.

The integrated scope fogging is also a problem... usually lead to BER status.. if needed repair.

The safety catch is in the rear......[/b]

Not BER.Replacement will be done, but the AS TAT for DS repair should be getting better, as compared to last year and before I guess.

Feedbacks to STK , as usual, have been slow in implementation.I can't show much faith in a rifle that fogs up after riverine and beachhead ops..

Meia Gisborn SG

Based on what I've read in the forum, it appears that scope fogging is a very real problem with the SAR-21. I am curious as to why this is the case. Is it a manufacturing defect, poor design or just an operational quirk?

SpecOps87 SG

The safety is not in the rear, the fire selector is there. Safety is located infront of the trigger. Bullpups always take a longer time to reload compared to the conventional designed weapons.

tvdog SG

Well, for starters, some people - like the MAF - may want to mount a better scope than the one that comes standard on their Steyr. Or a red dot aimpoint that makes a lot more sense than a LAD.

Let's not get personal, I am speculating why the MAF is ditching the Steyr, and moving BACK to conventional weapon like the M-16. Let's keep to the topic, shall we?

And we shouldn't compare ordinary SAF conscripts to professional US Marines or other special troops. If a SAF conscript platoon is equipped with LADs, they will likely use it without discretion.

[email protected] SG

well if we ignore the more nit picky things like these, the comparism of short range vs long range BALLISTICS would be like comparing the 9mm parabellum to the 5.56mm x 45 NATO to the 7.62mm x 39mm AK to the 7.62mm x 51mm NATO. Differing range ballastics also have a different ability to chew thru cover. Discounting specialised ballastics ya? Laughing

MobyDog SG

And how repair be done, if it's integrated ? I have heard that SAR21 have been BER, after being submerged in water...

Originally posted by Meia Gisborn :

Based on what I've read in the forum, it appears that scope fogging is a very real problem with the SAR-21. I am curious as to why this is the case. Is it a manufacturing defect, poor design or just an operational quirk?

Scope fogging is a common problem... many US soldier's also complain that their M-4 scope fogs too.. It is problem with the seals due to naturally occuring chemical effects, atmospheric pressure and temperature variation... and of course wear..

Meia Gisborn SG

Would you happen to know if STK nitrogen-purges the scopes on their SAR-21s?

(On most modern riflescopes, the moisture-bearing air in the tube is pumped out and replaced with nitrogen gas to eliminate fogging problems. Of course, if the scope is damaged and the airtight seals compromised, air can leak back in and cause fogging.)

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

The iron sights on the SAR are good to 100 meters, i tried it at a life firing. Only issue is that they can't be zeroed, but it isn't a problem if you have a weapon that shoots reasonably straight.

Problem is they probably won't be that useful at night, unless something was done about it.

And the LAD is quite useful, if you use it in the right way. I seriously doubt anybody would leave it on and chiong with it, but it is fantastic for FIBUA where you can point-index a target far away, turn on your laser for a burst to get your aim right and squeeze off a shot without ever having to narrow your field of view to the sights... it can be a lifesaver in combat, reducing the attention needed to take aimed fire.

Problem is don't believe all the bull about it being factory zeroed, virtually every SAR after some time develops it's own quirks that requires normal zeroing. And the LAD needs to be zeroed as well, and to a certain range at that.

Don't have much issue with the trigger squeeze, except that it feels mushier then the M16... but I still could hit targets 300 meters away, and double taps aren't a problem. The M16 squeeze is nice to have, but not really necessary.

A real issue is the reload time, and I am wondering why they don't bother to give it a proper ease spring, given the fact that when you bang the weapon in open bolt hard enough, it would eash spring itself. Going for the charging handle is quite a hassle, and lowers considerably the loading time.

But all in all, I found the weapon a more reliable shoot then the M16, as much as the M16 reminds me more of a oil and metal gun. The SAR spits out metal that can kill, gives me things the M16 cannot provide, and that's good enough for me. I feel a lot of the compliants come from expecting M16 qualities from the SAR when it's a totally different weapon entirely requiring a different mindset. Going about the SAR with an M16 mindset means you never make full use of the weapon, and unless you make full use of it, how can you judge it fairly against the other?

Shotgun SG

Well, the only problem I can think of related to the reload time is the higher rate of fire. Its really a more psychological problem than a design issue.

In adrenalin pumpin combat, a kan chiong soldier might not be firing at "normal" rate of fire, but "rapid" because of adrenalin rush, and the SAR-21 being too easy to shoot. Because it is easy to aim, a user may become more confident to shoot more, instead of taking well aimed shots. An improperly controlled section might actually find itself using up more ammunition than usual, and find itself reloading too often.

Disagreements on that opinion?

SpecOps87 SG

SAR21 v.v.difficult to do double tap lah. M16 is more crisp,and u noe when it will fire. SAR21 is realli mushy, unless u tell me u are using a modded version.The stock ones all v.difficult to do double taps.

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