Buried News: F16D shot down by Mirage 2000EGM

38 SG

Seems not too many people are aware of this " old " news because all the details are kept somewhat secret. Rolling Eyes

[quote]

F-16 Airframe Details for 91-0023 which was shot down by M2000 in 1996

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_fighting_falcon_airframe-3371.html

Comments:
Crashed into the Aegean Sea nine miles off the island of Chios during a routine flight. It was part of a flight of four F-4's and two F-16's. Just prior to the mishap two Mirage 2000's intercepted them. One of two person crew was rescued but the other is missing. According to an official report, the TUAF formation had illegaly violated Hellenic airspace and so was intercepted by 2 HAF Mirage 2000EG (331sqn, 114FW, Tanagra AB). The 2 TUAF F-16s evidently denied to comply and started agressive maneuvers against the HAF Mirage 2000EG. During the engagment that followed, one of the HAF Mirage 2000EG (piloted by lt. Grivas) fired a Magic IR missile. As a result a TUAF F-16D (#91-0023) was shot down. Immediately the second TUAF F-16 paused the engagment and escaped to the east in order to return to international air space. It was later determined (and kept secret) that the downed pilot who survived from the crash was in fact an Israeli pilot (Osman Cýceklý) dispached from IDFAF. The second pilot (TUAF flight officer) failed to eject in time due to the missile hit and was killed. The downed pilot was rescued 30 min. after shot down by a HAF AB-205 SAR helo (from 358th search and rescue squadron). The pilot received immediate medical care and returned a few days later to Turkey with a HAF C-130 flight. At first the incident was kept secret for obvious purposes and both countries (Greece and Turkey) officialy adopted a mechanical failure as the main cause of the accident. In 2003 the Greek Minister of Defence, Mr. Giannos Papantoniou, stated in public that the incident of Oct. 8th, 1996, that led to the loss of the TUAF F-16D was a result of the immediate action that was taken by HAF fighters during an interception against TUAF fighters violating Greek airspace.

Shotgun SG

Im not surprised that shots are actually fired. Haha.

I suspect that the Israeli pilot really wanted to stay out of this kinda situation.

Obersturmfuhrer SG

What was an Israeli pilot doing in a TUAF plane? The two countries aren’t exactly that cozy with each other.

Shotgun SG

The turks aren’t arabs. They aren’t that “uncozy.”

38 SG

one of pilot in the F16D got killed, later on the victim's relatives asked for compensation, that action makes the event fully exposed. Who still wants to stay out of any situation when he is dieing Wink

tankee1981 SG

Yes, it doesn't make sense why an israeli pilot is in a warplane owned by a muslim country and militarily involved with live missiles with another country which have no problems with Israel! If the Israelis are training the Turks, then shouldn't they be doing so, way back in Turkish airspace itself?

Greece and Turkey have fought a war over Cyprus and have complex maritime, air, territorial, and boundary disputes in the Aegean Sea. I mean these disputed boundaries should be the last place any foreign military personnel will want to be near! And certainly not with live ammo!

Can any people with knowledge on this pls explain to me? I will like to learn more on this matter.Thanks Very Happy

38 SG

Its really not too much light shed on this matter, could be the successful PR efforts by the Americans if you compared to the tons of info covered the F16s rather easily win over Serbs Mig29 in 1999. IMO, this classic dog fight carried between 2 3rd Gen fighters should be more referred, considering the pilots and AF size of both sides are comparable to each other.

Shotgun SG

I don't think this was a dogfight at all. As said, the Turks probably insisted that they were NOT in greek airspace, and the greeks said they were.

The greeks manuevered aggressively to show that they mean business, and the turks (with an israeli pilot), as they began to respond with a counter manuever, was popped with a WVR missile.

Question is: Were the turks armed? Was it necessary to fire on the F-16s if they were unarmed?

38 SG

Originally posted by Shotgun:
I don't think this was a dogfight at all. As said, the Turks probably insisted that they were NOT in greek airspace, and the greeks said they were.

The greeks manuevered aggressively to show that they mean business, and the turks (with an israeli pilot), as they began to respond with a counter manuever, was popped with a WVR missile.

well, see the most detailed Description I can get so far on this event:

""The combat began with a pair each of Turkish F-16s and Greek Mirage 2000s, but during the high-G manoeuvring the pairs split up. The Greek Mirage 2K got inside its opponent's turn, closed in and launched a French Magic missile - a hit. The F-16 was destroyed. ""

So you judge it's typical dog fight or not Wink

Question is: Were the turks armed? Was it necessary to fire on the F-16s if they were unarmed?

An unarmed F16 dared to perform so aggressively by supposed well trained pilot? Id better believe my commonsense judgement before jumping into Turks claim in forums.

zenden9 SG

We have to admit.sometimes french stuff r really good. Tested and proven! Six-days war and now the Greeks and Turks incident. Unfortunately,we r not going to get our hands on some Rafale but rather some old-design F-15E..

Atobe SG

Originally posted by zenden9:
We have to admit.sometimes french stuff r really good. Tested and proven! Six-days war and now the Greeks and Turks incident. Unfortunately,we r not going to get our hands on some Rafale but rather some old-design F-15E..

The French can be a hard nose bunch to deal with, with their snobbish insistence of ignoring English.

Fortunately, we did not decide in favor of the Rafale, or we will have tons of problems with translation of the Operating and Spare Parts Manuals.

Is it not surprising that the SAF - after testing with a few units - did not proceed with the purchase of the AMX-10 APC ?

Atobe SG

Originally posted by tankee1981:
Yes, it doesn't make sense why an israeli pilot is in a warplane owned by a muslim country and militarily involved with live missiles with another country which have no problems with Israel! If the Israelis are training the Turks, then shouldn't they be doing so, way back in Turkish airspace itself?

Greece and Turkey have fought a war over Cyprus and have complex maritime, air, territorial, and boundary disputes in the Aegean Sea. I mean these disputed boundaries should be the last place any foreign military personnel will want to be near! And certainly not with live ammo!

Can any people with knowledge on this pls explain to me? I will like to learn more on this matter.Thanks

The Israelis and the Turks have found some common ground to build on their relationship.

Although Turkey is largely Islamic, they maintained a secular government, and the Turkish Military has insisted that 'Religion' has no place in Politics.

Both Israel and Turkey share common fear towards the ambitions of Syria, Iraq and Iran - each for their own internal politics and social-religious principles.

The "Enemy of My Enemy, is My Friend" - perhaps explains the psychology of the relationship between Turkey and Israel.

For more reading on this very interesting modern day politics, try the following:

Turkish PM visit Israel - 2005

Israel Shifting of Geopolitical Security Concerns Threaten its Relationship with Turkey - 2004

Turkish-Jewish Friendship Over 500 Years
The Region: Turkey is Israels best neighbor. - 2001

The Israeli-Turkish Connection - 1999

Turkey Israeli Relationship - 1997

Shotgun SG

According to your account, it really seemed like the Greeks went aggressive first. Firstly, no self respecting pilot is gonna allow another aircraft get on his six. If he sees the Mirage2000 suddenly split out and manuever behind him, the F-16 Pilot WILL try to out turn him. Cos whoever is behind gets to dictate the terms.

Honestly, I didn think the Turkish flight would have expected the greeks to actually shoot. Who the hell fires a war shot without formally declaring war?

Given the profile of their missions, I would think the Mirage flight was more aggressive and went on the offensive first. The Turks picked a bad day to play chicken with the greeks.

On the question of whether the F-16s were armed... well, I do not believe they were. Not that they would shoot back, but if they were gonna poke around Greek airspace to test their defences, and dodge back into international airspace, then they'd better be unarmed. Lest they be shot on sight. In fact, they aren't even supposed to turn on their fire control radar.

38 SG

Originally posted by Shotgun:

According to your account, it really seemed like the Greeks went aggressive first. Firstly, no self respecting pilot is gonna allow another aircraft get on his six. If he sees the Mirage2000 suddenly split out and manuever behind him, the F-16 Pilot WILL try to out turn him. Cos whoever is behind gets to dictate the terms.

Well, it's not my account, if you see the report quoted by F-16.net again, especially those words I highlighted, youll see Turks were the 1 who initialize the high G maneuvers which no doubt will be seen as war behavior. I quote again here:

"...The 2 TUAF F-16s evidently denied to comply and started agressive maneuvers against the HAF Mirage 2000EG... "

Honestly, I didn think the Turkish flight would have expected the greeks to actually shoot. Who the hell fires a war shot without formally declaring war?

This scenario can be interpreted as 1 ( or several)unauthorized person enters military restricted area and soldiers with gun are sent to intercept him, as soon as this guy sees the soldier coming and starts to run, you can expect the soldiers reaction.

Given the profile of their missions, I would think the Mirage flight was more aggressive and went on the offensive first. The Turks picked a bad day to play chicken with the greeks.

Well what undeniable is the Mirages did out perform the F16D and gain the position allowed it to shoot the Magic II IR. The fact I really count.

On the question of whether the F-16s were armed... well, I do not believe they were. Not that they would shoot back, but if they were gonna poke around Greek airspace to test their defences, and dodge back into international airspace, then they'd better be unarmed. Lest they be shot on sight. In fact, they aren't even supposed to turn on their fire control radar.

If the F16D were unarmed, I doubt its powerful General Electric F110-GE-100 engine can't out run the Mirage 2000EGM's single spool, T/W 6.5 only M53 engine and let the Mirage2000 gain the position. More likely is the F16 is armed and the plane thus lost some agilty. And based on record, these 2 F16s ( 1 -C, 1 -D) were sent to backup the 4 F-4s.

Anyway, because the lack of details, too many sayings are flown all around

tripwire SG

there is also the question... does the greek pilot think that he will be shot down.

technically... this greek and turkish air tango aint rare.. its pretty common from what i heard.. but no planes were ever shot down... at least no live fire was ever initiated.

if the greek pilot believe that he will not be shot down.. chances is... he isnt really doing his best... to fight.. i mean... he is somewhat mentally "disarmed" based on past experience with turkish air force.

the isreali pilots on the other hand.. were real warriors.. they lived in a place where war is common.. planes do shoot live ammo and pilots are killed...

there is probably no reason for the isreali pilot to believe otherwise, the intention of the greek pilot when he see the greek F-16 doing "aggressive manouver".

the first thing that came to the greek pilot's mind prior to the engagement is probably "OK.. LETS have some FUN!"

the last thing that came to the greek pilots mind when the missile came for him, is probably " HOLY SHIT.. HE REALLY FIRE AT ME!!"

SpecOps87 SG

Erm...ain't it the Turkish jets which were shot down and not the Greek's Mirages?

Shotgun SG

Have u seen the Turkish account?

The Aegean sea is a problematic area. The Greeks recognise a 12-mile territorial sea limit, while the Turks do not. So the turks believe they are operating in International Airspace, while the Greeks think that the Turks are violating their airspace.

Naturally, if you THINK u are right, and you think u are in International Airspace, u wouldn't comply if someone asks u to leave a place which is rightfully free right? So what will u do? Continue on your course, and ignore the bugger rite?

The Greeks now gets pissed. Hence they manuever in with their Fire Control Radar on.

On the recieving end, the Israeli pilot, probably veteran of pissing of Arab neighbours, hears his Radar warning reciever go off. And instinctively executes a max-g break to put the Mirage on his 3-9 line. (Remember, in WVR combat, a radar lock is equivalent to a missile launch because IR guided missiles dun trigger off alerts to the RWR). He'd probably pop off some flares to be safe. PROBABLY.

TWO POSSIBLE events may happened subsequently.

1. Mirage pilot sees the max -G break, assumes it as a hostile action. And pulls hard together the F-16 for a Fox2.

Turk pilot goes "WTF" and bugs out.

OR.

2. F-16 makes the Max-G break. Turk pilot sees that and thinks they are being shot at, turns towards the Mirage flight and spikes the Mirage Flight.

Mirage pilot goes "WTF" with his already locked weapon and fires (probably doesnt have authority to shoot...) thinking that the Turks are returning fire. Poor Israeli pilot gets shot down for doing the right thing with the wrong people...

Now, how is it that the F-16 gets out turned? The F-16 was probably not in its corner airspeed, which is about 340-440 kts. That is the speed which the F-16 makes the most radians per second. Not gonna say how much exactly that is... but its enough to out turn most planes.

So was the F16s faster than 440, or lesser than 340? If faster, they were probably in a hurry going somewhere.

IF slower, they were probably cruising along for wad ever reason they were told to.

But I'm pretty sure the Turks weren't planning to invade Greece with 2 F-16s.

All in all, its still the Greek Mirage 2000 flight that has the more aggressive mission profile. That was to INTERCEPT the F-16s.

zenden9 SG

Why sometimes it is so hard to believe Yankee stuff is not invincible? Why so many people get into the defence of F-16? Just becos RSAF operating it? Mirage 2000 is a very capapble fighter too! Can just people believe a Mirage 2000 can outmanoevre a F-16? Why must put all the blame on pilot and situations???

Shotgun SG

Becoz, ultimately, its the pilot that is the factor.

Any plane can tahan more than 9gs, but not every pilot can.

specfore SG

On the contrary, the Turks are friendly with the Israelis. Logic says that a Muslim country can't be but I know it is so. The Turkish F4 Phantoms and F 5s have Isreali upgrades. In fact, the F5 was a joint upgrade between an Israeli firm and a Singapore one.