Traitor in SAF

last SG · 2006-02-09T01:49:50+00:00

not them. im talking about people who meticuously plan their murders and are never caught. Jack the Ripper for instance.

SMAPLionHeart SG

Yue fei is kind of blur....he disobeyed 12 emperor's plaques to return home...
then they arrested him , he should have like used his army to protect him..

Icemoon SG

How? By storming his army into the palace? Laughing

chunyong SG

then they will shoot u and mass-desert.... Laughing

SMAPLionHeart SG

Seize the throne , kill emperor , unify whole china , invade and destroy everywhere

Twisted Evil

Icemoon SG

not that they have higher chance of surviving.

bump into own people they arrest you. bump into enemy they kill you.

[email protected] SG

ahahaha. forget it la. your argument is not very cohesive. if someone wants to shoot the PC, theres not much anyone can do to stop him. u can say all u want, but the fact is, if someone just gets it into their head to shoot ANYONE in the platoon, noone can stop him because they won't know until AFTER someone has been shot. Laughing

[email protected] SG

i see nobody here can really answer the question yet.

so do we see Yue Fei as a traitor for disobeying the emperor?

TooFree SG

No.

I am baffled, are you able to differentiate the good and the evil in the first place. Confused

TooFree SG

No one likes war. So if war do breaks out, anyone in his right frame of mind would prefer the quick and decisive victory to restore back the peace and tranquility.

In my opinion, no one in his right mind would go on a rampant gunning down your wartime buddies based on vengeance or accumulative hatred. The outbreak of war should have sorted out whatever hatred one has kept inside oneself that is because each and everyone know that in time of adversity, we should all the more keep a lookout for one another.

If it is towards a certain field commander failed leadership and his men is not comfortable working with him, such problems are usually forseen through routine exercises and dealt with appropriately through AAR. I personally view backstabbing as a possible scenerio yet rare where the bonds among commanders and theirs men should have been forge during NS and ICT. Neutral

[email protected] SG

its not about good and evil. its about prespective. we can accuse someone of being a traitor but how can we be sure?

like that guy who betrayed chiang kai shek to the communists? to the nationalists, the communists were the enemy, but the japanese invaders were a bigger and common enemy. how we see this case then?

im just pointing out that its easy to simply label someone a traitor, but if u dig beneath that, things are never as easy to judge.

and i also mentioned earlier we can discount those who do things out of greed.

[email protected] SG

this is too naive a view. if u think war sorts out whatever hatred one has for others in the same uniform, i sugest u have a look back in history. there has been far too many cases where people use war as an excuse to eliminate their rivals even though they're on the same side.

and oh yes, wartime "buddy" is a very subjective view. someone might not see himself as a "buddy" of his platoon commander or platoon sgt? and then what then?

im not saying if its right or wrong to gun down others on your same side. im saying if it happens, nobody can stop it.

Icemoon SG

A traitor is mostly used in the context of treason, ie. betraying your country.

[email protected] SG

So what about the helo crew which threatened to shoot their fellow americans in mai lai village? they threatened their countrymen to save the enemy vietnamese. is that considered treason?

i think the point is, unless we're talking about cases of cowardice or personal greed, where idealogy and morals are concerned, its hard to define a traitor.

Icemoon SG

no point going through such scenarios since these are not the actions of a reasonable person.

If you're not locked up, you can do anything you want. You can kill yourself. You can *try* to kill someone. It is whether you succeed or not.

Icemoon SG

if you want an objective answer .. yes.

Idealogy and morals have nothing to do with treason. You betray means you betray.

[email protected] SG

equally i can argue that they were upholding the image of their country and the GIs who were slaughtering the innocent villagers were doing damage to their country's image.

So in this case we can see the GIs as the traitors while the airmen were patriots.

so how do u want to go about arguing this? even betray has to depend on how a scenario is looked at.

Icemoon SG

but his argument is *sound*. even though his conclusion is questionable.

[email protected] SG

well unfortunately war makes people go nuts.

in war reason is often the 1st casualty

cases where superior officers have been shot 1st by their own men, or where soldiers have shot their fellow soldiers have tragically been too many to count. And there are those where such incidents are not even reported. I'm telling u these things happen, and however much u argue against it, they're not going to stop just because u think its not reasonable or because u're against it.
Wink

Icemoon SG

there's nothing confusing.

You're somehow right that the context is important. When you presented your scenario, the context is about that group of soldiers and vietnamese, nothing was mentioned about image of their country.

Look at Qiao Feng. He can either help the begger sect (and the chinese people) or he can chose to join Yelu Hongji. Either way, he will be a traitor.

[email protected] SG

there is a difference between a sound argument and reality.

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