Evaluate the Latest Mitsubishi Evolution IX

last SG · 2005-05-07T20:07:39+00:00

straight from Jeremy Clarkson, "Ugly, but quite coooool" even JC says its ugly, nevermind the cool part

dansplace SG

Ok I am a little slow today, but the issue here is that the SAYC provides the transfer of traction to wheels which have greater traction. But it helps to "forgive mistakes committed by the driver"? What are the mistakes you are referring to?

Entering the corner too quickly? Is that a mistake or a driver knowing the limits of his/her car and hence knowing that the car is capable to handling the higher cornering speed? But ABS also helps in forgiving the mistakes...

Slight mistakes - lap times will still be slower
Bad mistakes - lap might not be completed

To me, I think the issue is what crufty mentioned earlier that SAYC (or whatever variant in other cars) help to push the limits of the car to a higher level than what is possible. Without it, a driver knowing the limits of his car, will alter his driving style to suit the situation. A driver unfamiliar with the car, may push the car beyond whats it is capable of - with all the electronic gadgetry in the world might not save him from the concrete.

dansplace SG

Slow today but high on coffee – hence hit submit twice…

crufty SG

Your reading comprehension skills are poor indeed. Here is the Wiki entry for a strawman argument, I suggest you read it.

1) You totally ignored the fact that I explained how the AYC is a technically superior solution to traction limited surfaces, regardless of the driver's skill/experience level.

2) I never met a "skilled" or "pro" driver who is unable to execute a 0.85 G turn assuming the vehicle is capable of it. I have seen "novice" or "unskilled" drivers attempt 1+G turns when it's obvious the vehicle is not up to it. Needless to say the results were not pretty. I have also seen pro or skilled drivers attempt the same turn also at 1+G but they know how to bring the car under control, and skill/experience are the main differentiating factors. I do not know how you are able to misconstrue such a simple explanation to mean otherwise.

In summary, in case you still have difficulty understanding:

a) Not all Evos are equal. An Evo with AYC as compared to one without has several advantages as outlined earlier.
b) Not all drivers are equal. It takes a good/skilled/pro driver to bring a car to its limits and to be able to control it at that limit.

crufty SG

You hit the nail on the head. His point of view is that just because a stock Ferrari 360 CS can corner at 0.97 G's, it is "idiot-proof". It is "idiot-proof" insofar as you do not exceed the traction limit, but you better be a damn good driver when you do exceed it!

tailslide SG

wat i meant in driver mistake is referring to is:

1) when u brake too late, u miss the correct line and the predictability of the car's ability to stay on course is determined by a) driver's skills and b) how capable is the car's traction enhancement devices is able to help the driver get as much traction as needed to keep the car pointed in the rite direction.

2) when u brake too early, no probs getting the line correct in this case but how much time u lose is again dependant on a) driver's skills and b) how much traction u get from the car to power the car out of the corner asap to save time.

in both scenarios when a driver commits such mistakes. ayc or sayc has a distinct advantage over other cars which are not so well endowed in making up for the driver's errors.

as far as u have read my posts, i have never argued on this point about the distinction between driver and vehicle competencies. i wholehearted concede the points that u have brought up but then again, this has no bearing over the position i have taken throughout this debate. wat really ruffled my feathers was the fact that someone could callously call my remarks "prejudiced" when he was unable to point out to me when this was the case in the first place. "prejudiced" against wat?

tailslide SG

i dun give a rat's @rse what u think of my comprehension.

did i? have i mentioned fact in contrary to this? prove it or eat ur words.

what was miscontrued by me is stemmed from ur pitiful ability to qualify the essence of wat makes a good or bad driver from ur incompetent analogies.

in conclusion, u still think that i am arguing with u over these petty facts.

a) i did say that the ayc was wonderful, which in essence corroborates with wat u think i failed to comprehend on this point.
b) i did say that there are distinctions between a good and a bad driver. i never argued with u on this point did i?

but one thing u have failed to prove after several posts is how "prejudiced" was my opinion on wat i feel about the evo's handling with the ayc. stop harping on topics that puts some vague justification to ur arguments.

dansplace SG

Thanks, I just wanted to make sure that we are on the same footing.. anyway, just would like to say that with the electronic enhancement of the cars nowadays, cars can brake later and turn in sharper. The fine line of distinction is what you defined as "mistakes".

What I am saying is that with the same model car without such gadgets vis-a-vis the same car but gadget-filled , and using the same driver - he can and should go around the track quicker with the gadget cars. BUT not becos his mistakes are "forgiven" or "corrected" BUT becos the car's limit has been pushed to a different level.

The driver's skill (to me) is irrelevant - i.e. replace the same driver with a bad driver; the outcome would generally be the same.

Yaw control, ABS, etc were invented for the daily driver who could not "throw" the weight of the car for better traction, had little idea about effective braking, etc (like me)... At the end of the day, to say that a certain electronic gadget helps to forgive or correct a driver's mistake is too harsh. Why? Think about it, its a little hypocritical to say that when almost every car on the road has ABS, power steering, some sort of traction control, etc... you know what I am getting at? Smile

crufty SG

You still don't get it do you?

If a driver "commits such mistakes" at the fringe of traction, even the AYC is not going to help. End of story.

wat really ruffled my feathers was the fact that someone could callously call my remarks "prejudiced" when he was unable to point out to me when this was the case in the first place. "prejudiced" against wat?

OK, for the benefit of the blind:

the crux of the matter was that i'm saying the GSR has an excellent "traction enhancement device" which makes for great handling and forgiving for mistakes committed by the driver...

i was commending the super ayc's ability to correct the driver's incompetency.

Does that not reek of prejudice? Or do you need me to tell you how to use a dictionary now? Your statements have been implying that the AYC makes up for the lack of skill in the driver. The AYC is an excellent "traction enhancement device" PERIOD. It works all the time, whether the driver is good or not, is beside the point. When its limits are eventually overcome, you HAVE to be good to get back control PERIOD.

tailslide SG

true. ayc and acd in addition to abs does allow the car to brake later and turn sharper than other cars for the occasional track driver.

perhaps the use of the term "forgiving" here needs to be re-evaluated, but i still feel however that the presence of such gadgetry does allow for quicker lap times. if i put the same driver who commits the same mistakes at the same corner in an evo GSR and the next with an evo RS, chances are, the GSR would clock faster times. though differing in nature, the idea of replacing a bad driver with a good one on the same vehicle would also yield similar improvement in results, as the smarter/more skillful driver would know exactly when to brake, turn and accelerate to get the most traction in any given scenario compared to one who relies purely on electronic gadgets and devices to get him outta a tricky situation.

being an average driver myself, i personally wished my car had ayc. then again being FF, i personally have no choice but to to put in more effort on my driving if i want to keep up with the rexes and evos on track days. Crying or Very sad

tailslide SG

then wat if the mistake was NOT committed "at the fringe of traction"? ur one tracked mind obviously overlooked this scenario. even for an evo scrambling to get back on course after losing traction, the AYC is and will always be helping the driver overcome his mistakes compared to a car not equipped with it.

let me put it straight in ur face. AYC does help to make up for the lack of skills in the driver whether it works half time, full time or overtime is besides the point. when the limits are overcome, u better pray that u have something like the AYC to help u get the most traction from all 4 wheels to save u.

if u can tell me one reason why this statement is not true, then by all means call me prejudiced. i for one have never discounted the benefit of the ayc or acd and whatever their intended use was and that is a fact. ur little squirmish in vindicating me as being "prejudiced" not only needs polishing, it needs to be grinded down and sanded.

dansplace SG

Sorry hopefully this is not nitpicking hor... I think you should delete the "occasional track driver" in the above statement...

Agree...

I specifically avoided using GSR and RS examples, as the cars are more different than just removing the SAYC. Thats why I used egs of same car, one with and one without SAYC.

I think thats a little bit presumptious... I refer to "compared to one who relies purely on electronic gadgets and devices to get him outta a tricky situation". I dun think drivers will go around the track thinking "the SAYC and ACD will get me out of a mess"; rather one would think "I can push the car around this corner faster"... so like I said before, the gadgetry brings the car to a different level than without it. Hence entering into a sweeping corner too quickly, will get some input from the ayc but it will not get you around the track in the fastest manner. ayc is meant to provide traction to wheels have more traction, its not a miracle pill, I guess thats what I am saying.

dansplace SG

Originally posted by tailslide:

when the limits are overcome, [b]u better pray that u have something like the AYC to help u get the most traction from all 4 wheels to save u.
[/b]

oh uh Neutral .... thats what I have been saying, Tailslide... when the limits are overcome, all the ayc in the world is not going to help you - hence your statement on a driver depending on electronic trickery to get him out of a mess is, uhm, questionable... Smile

crufty SG

I see you're a slow learner. Refer to "strawman argument" above. No one said anything about not making mistakes.

let me put it straight in ur face. [b]AYC does help to make up for the lack of skills in the driver whether it works half time, full time or overtime is besides the point. when the limits are overcome, u better pray that u have something like the AYC to help u get the most traction from all 4 wheels to save u.[/b]

Isn't this what I typed above, paraphrased?

if u can tell me one reason why this statement is not true, then by all means call me prejudiced. i for one have never discounted the benefit of the ayc or acd and whatever their intended use was and that is a fact. ur little squirmish in vindicating me as being "prejudiced" not only needs polishing, it needs to be grinded down and sanded.

You might want to get someone to read your reply. It made absolutely no sense. I have no idea what "squirmish" means in this context. And I'm not "vindicating" anyone for sure!

Lance_han SG

making it the first evo to break the trademark Hp rating of less-then-300HP Laughing

tailslide SG

i beg 2 differ dan.

there is a limit that the ayc can take the car till, beyond which, the car still loses traction. i think we can all agree on this point.

my point that ayc is dependable for getting outta a messy situation is again based on the fact that ayc is a traction enhancement device. irregardless of the type of situation, whether pushing the limits of grip or attempting to recover from a situation when grip has been lost, we all need to get the most of whatever traction there is available on tap to rein the car in.

for ppl like me who dun have the benefit of ayc, i have no idea on which wheel is slipping except for my own "feel" of the weight transfer i am undergoing as well as the directional shifts of my front and rear ends. for the GSR, this "feeling" for grip is electronically controlled in realtime, minimizing effort for the driver who's now trying to get a grip on a hairy situation, literally. thats one of the benefits of having ayc which i personally can't deny.

tailslide SG

u have nothing to teach that is of any learning value. the very fact that u failed to include conderations contrary to ur personal cause goes to show how well ur english teacher taught u how to write an essay.

u can cover ur eyes and continue to lie all u want. but its plain obvious that wat i have said is different from the version given by u above.

for the benefit of those who bothered reading, until u begin to explain what "prejudice" means in ur context, i am likened not to enlighten u on the context for which those terms are being referred outta concern that it might continue to pave the way for further, unrelated debate. keep to the point if u have nothing intelligent to say please.

[email protected] SG

all so fierce...

*cowers in fear*

crufty SG

You are what you write, indeed.

1) I'm not here to "teach" anything
2) I'm not here to write an essay

Is that what you think of yourself? That you're here to "teach"? That you "write essays"? Spare me please. Your last reply was so incomprehensible I didn't even know what you were writing about.

what hypocrasy. didn't u say this?

Until now, you still don't understand what is meant by a strawman argument? You brought up AYC being a traction aid, I answered, now you're talking about not being at the limits of traction, which is beside the point.

You should be awarded Off-Topic champion, I guess that will satisfy your ego.

u can cover ur eyes and continue to lie all u want. but its plain obvious that wat i have said is different from the version given by u above.

I would strongly suggest you consider the words you use very carefully.

For the comprehension-impaired:

Why did you consistently emphasize in the original 2 statements on the "driver's incompetency" when you yourself admitted that the AYC is a traction enhancement device that is useful regardless of skill level?

Lance_han SG

well...wadever happen here..??? Mr. Green

dansplace SG

Originally posted by tailslide:
[b]...[b]

What I guess I am saying is that unless you own a F430 or any car which you are able to turn the traction control off - its gonna be working whether you like it or not. Hence if you have pushed the car to the limits, what it inertly means is that you have pushed the ayc to its limits too.

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