Hokkien A Post

Chew Bakar SG

#) “u7-tan(g)-si5”: 有<X>?時 (= “sometimes”) and “kong5”.

cin-nia ce lang, i-lang u-tan(g)-si bo beng-pek hut-li, lang2 kiaN5 bo-tioh e lO liau, liau, khO lai e si, lang2 toh kong5 liau la.

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有時 u7 si is Hokkien

有当時 u-tan(g)-si is an adaptation from Teochew or North lingo.

SimL SG

>> Tiam2-siaN1 is "o'clock" not time.

Chew Bakar: which variant of Hokkien do you speak? tiam-sian for "time" (as in 'period of time') is quite normal in PgHk, which is the variant I'm asking about.

"o'clock" is just "tiam2" in PgHk, as in "gO-tiam", "lak-tiam" (=5 o'clock, 6 o'clock). I've never heard of "gO-tiam-siaN", "lak-tiam-siaN" in any variant I know, but it's possible that it's used in other variants.

One of the things I've learnt about Hokkien is that there is a huge variation in usage, even for the most common concepts, like "often", or "happy" etc.

Chew Bakar SG

>> Tiam2-siaN1 is "o'clock" not time.

Chew Bakar: which variant of Hokkien do you speak? tiam-sian for "time" (as in 'period of time') is quite normal in PgHk, which is the variant I'm asking about.

One of the things I've learnt about Hokkien is that there is a huge variation in usage, even for the most common concepts, like "often", or "happy" etc.

time = 時 and division on the clock = 點. PgHk adapts 點 as 時. Sorry if my o'clock confuse you.

I speak Amoy Hokkien.

Bangulzai SG

actually your findings are largely correct already. your work is great.

regarding 做蜀下 = all at once / to get together, yes, you are right, 蜀 cit8 is written in order to distinguish it from 一 it4, with the same meaning of "one". So far the 闽 languages are the only Chinese dialects that differentiate 2 types of "one" - for counting and literary uses 一 it4, for all other purposes mostly use 蜀 cit8.

regarding hong-hiam, the pronunciation indeed matches 风险 hong1-hiam2 = dangerous. i find it hard to translate it either as "violent" too. the alternative nearest match would be 惶显 hong5-hiaN2 = fearful, which seem to fit the translation ("die a fearful death") but pronunciation-wise i'm afraid not.

regarding chut-siaN, i agree with the other forummers that it should be 出城 chut4-siaN5 = leaving the city. because the city that Buddha resides is 王舍城 (Rājagaha), therefore "leaving the city" just means "leaving Rājagaha".

regarding 有当时 u7-tang1-si5, we also use it in Singapore along with 有时 u7-si5 and 有时阵 u7-si5-cun7 for "sometimes". Chew Bakar states the same character.

regarding 狂 kong5, it can mean "to rush" as mentioned by you, the same character with the same pronunciation can also mean "mad / dizzy" as in 头狂狂 thau5-kong5-kong5 = head dizzy, or 人狂狂 lang5-kong5-kong5 = person's awareness or consciouness becomes swayed / abnormal / uncontrollable.

regarding chit4-tho5 or tit4-tho5, I accept Chew Bakar's etymology wholly, even though it's this is the very 1st time I have seen this relationship. I find that 蹉跎 fits nicely both pronunciation-wise and meaning-wise. (no doubt, for 蹉 to become 入声 may at first seem impossible, but since this is a very commonly used word, for it to assimilate the initial consonant of the following character is highly possible. i deduce the change to be from che1-tho5 -> chet4-tho5 -> chit4-tho5 -> tit4-tho5. reason for me choosing 蹉che1 would be the possibility of same pronunciation as its radical 差 che1. and also the frequent interchangeability between "ci" and "chi" and "ti" and "thi" in 闽南). Therefore, Chew Bakar's version of 蹉跎 is way way superior than commonly used versions such as 七桃、佚佗、彳亍、and "辶+日"迌 forms.

regarding nan2-chuan2, you have got 南传 which is definitely correct.
regarding the other 4 are the 4 sections (部) of the 阿含(经) (Agama Buddhist Scriptures)

gO-cheng is either could be #1) 5000 (sutras) according to context. It does not seem to be 5-(classifier) nor 5-(adjective) because there are only 4 sections of the 阿含 mentioned // or either could be #2) a Mandarin pronunciation corruption of the term 五乘gO7-seng7 or ngO2-seng7. in Buddhism, there is a term called 五乘佛法: http://big5.jiexieyin.org/show.aspx?id=1483&cid=100 (reference)

regarding nie4-tuan2, it seems to be a mispronunciation of nie4-pan2 unless proven otherwise

regarding lu5-lai5, it should mean the other word for Buddha, 如来. except in this case the speaker did not use the ChiangChiu version of ju5-lai5 but borrowed from Amoy / ChuanChiu varieties.

regarding kok4-thau5, could it be a Mandarin pronunciation corruption of the term 磕头khap8-thau5 = head touching the ground in respect ?

regarding seng1-a1-lO5-han3, 升 or 昇 are both acceptable as character variations of the same word

regarding k(h)a-huat, your guess of 教法 makes sense

regarding hong7-kau3 ("Christianity"), your character 奉 is correct. It is a day-to-day usage in Singapore Hokkien. eg. 奉教堂 hong7-kau3-tng5 = "church" Versus 回教堂hue5-kau3-tng5 = "mosque"

regarding tiam2-siaN1, I have to disagree with Chew Bakar but agree with you that it means "time". 点声 or 點聲 are both acceptable as character variations of the same words.

for example in Singapore Hokkien:

Chew Bakar SG

Thanks Bangulzai.

SimL SG

Chew Bakar: I posted a thank you for your responses yesterday but that disappeared too. I think it's because I'm a new poster and still haven't reached my quota of 20. Then, I have to post more than 5 minutes apart, otherwise it loses my post. I think there's an error message issued, but I don't notice.

In any case, thanks for your input - much valued.

Bangulzai: thank you very much too! Once again, the detail and care of your responses is amazing, and I'm very, very grateful.

I'm very busy at work at the moment (this is my lunchbreak), so I can't have a very close look at the responses. But I'll try and give some feedback in the next few days.

Thanks again to you both. I'm so glad I found this forum and thread :-).

Chew Bakar SG

In any case, thanks for your input - much valued.

Bangulzai: thank you very much too! Once again, the detail and care of your responses is amazing, and I'm very, very grateful.

I'm very busy at work at the moment (this is my lunchbreak), so I can't have a very close look at the responses. But I'll try and give some feedback in the next few days.

Thanks again to you both. I'm so glad I found this forum and thread :-).

Thanks.

I'm not good at Buddhism. Bangulzai knows more and better explain those terminology.

Nice to see youngsters interested in Hokkien. Pleasure to be of some help.

SimL SG

Chew Bakar: I'm grateful for anybody's contribution and ideas, so thank you, even if you know less about Buddhism than Bangulzai.

Bangulzai: thanks for the list of time-related words.

>> kui2-tiam2-ceng1 ? = 几点钟?

Yes, also used in PgHk. But if the speaker has no particular unit in mind (the answer could be minutes, hours, or even days, weeks, months, etc), then “jua7-ku2” 若久 is also common in PgHk.

I think it's interesting that I actually pronounce it "juah4(sandhi-tone)-ku2", so this re-inforces your theory (in another context) that people can 'incorrectly' insert a stop at the end of a syllable, to make a non-ru-tone into a ru-tone.

>> sim2-mih4-tiam2-siaN1 ? = 甚物点声？ = "What's the time?

>> (can be accurate as the clock/watch or can be just an approximate timing such

>> as morning orafternoon or evening but not too far from the present moment)"

>> sim2-mih4-si5-kan1 ? = 甚物时间？ = similar to the above sentence but

>> sounds unnatural

In PgHk, “ha-mi-tiam-siaN” sounds more natural than “ha-mi-si-kan” too.

>> sim2-mih4-si5-cun7 ? 甚物时阵? and u7-si5-cun7 有时阵

Very interesting to learn these, as I didn’t know them. I was familiar with “cit-cun” and “hit-cun” for “now” and “then” from my Amoy-speaking grandmother (though I didn’t know the character 阵). I used to find it interesting as a child that “now” was “cit-cun” in Amoy and “tong-kim” in PgHk.

I wonder what the characters are for “tong1/5/7-kim1”?

SimL SG

Chew Bakar:

>> 有当時 u-tan(g)-si is an adaptation from Teochew or North lingo.

I found this a particularly interesting statement.

It fits in with the "well-known" fact that PgHk uses "wa" instead of "gua" for "I". I've been told that this is borrowed from Teochew.

I have to confess that I'd never consciously heard Teochew in my life, and one day, I was in a Buddhist temple, and this nun came up to speak to me. She started babbling on in what I considered to be VERY VERY badly pronounced Hokkien. I could understand most of what she said, but I thought: "Hmmm... perhaps she's from another part of China, and came to live in Penang long after she was an adult, and learnt PgHk late in life, and hence her accent is horrible".

Later, when she had gone away, I said to the person who was with me: "Oh, she had a very strange accent", and he said, "No, she was just speaking Teochew".

I was VERY embarassed that I didn't know this. In fact, it was only at that moment that I realised that I didn't even know what Teochew sounded like.

Bangulzai SG

Oh I missed out 偌久 lua7-ku2 / jua7-ku2. A lot of these aspects really shows Penang Hokkien is similar to Singapore Hokkien. A separate character 偌 is used for lua7 / jua7 instead of 若 due to different etymology. 偌 lua7 / jua7 is the conglomeration of 若夥 lioh8-ua7 / jioh8-ua7. There are two secondary evidence which can show this: 1) Till this day in Teochew 若久 jioh8-ku2 is still the form used. 2) Till this day in Hockchew 若夥(久) nuoh8-uai7-(oung5) is still the form used

Regarding the inserting of a stop at the end of a non-ru syllable, it happens commonly to 有 u in the 兴化 Henghwa language (dialect) . Example: 有工 u-kang -> uk-kang, 有侬 u-nang -> ut-nang, 有死 u-ɬi -> ut-ɬi, 有抽有动 u-thiu-u-tang -> ut-thiu-ut-tang, 有目 u-mah -> up-mah, 有喙 u-chui -> ut-chui

Regarding 声 or 聲 siaN1, it is quantity suffix:

Both 当今 tong1-kim1 and 即阵 cit4-cun7 exists in Singapore Hokkien. 即 cit4 is the conglomeration of 只一 ci2-it4

Chew Bakar SG

当今 tong1-kim1 and 即阵 cit4-cun7 have slight difference in Hokkien.

当今 is more like currently, 即阵 is now or immediately.

SimL SG

Hi Chew Bakar,

I think I can sense the difference you mean, even though I don't know "cit4-cun7" very well. However, I don't think PgHk has "cit4-cun7" at all, so "tong1-kim1" has to be used for both these senses.

Hi Bangulzai,

Thanks for all those "siaN1" compounds. Very interesting to know. In one of the lectures, the speaker says "hue-siaN" with a meaning which corresponds very closely to what you give (although, from the context, I have to translate it slightly differently there).

Here are the next lot of questions :-).

Thanks in advance! (We're almost near the end of the questions).

#) “ka1/5/7-se1”

“u-e gin-a, i-lang m-bat lai khuaN chut-kE-lang, na-si i-lang chua gin-a lai, he-le gin-a khuaN-tioh chut-kE-lang cheng CI-le ka-se, i toh hau!”

= “Some children, they have never come to see monks and nuns, if they bring [those] children [here], those children [when] they see monks and nuns wearing this <ka-se>, they [start to] cry!”

What is a “ka-se”? From context, it would be the robes which monks and nuns wear, but I haven’t been able to find this in Douglas or Barclay. What are the characters?

#) “khuaN3-ui7”: 看位 ?

“bo juah ku nia, wa ti Ipoh, khi khuaN-ui”

= “Not long [ago], I was in Ipoh, [I] went to look at <a place?>”

Is “khuaN-ui” a fixed combination - i.e. a 詞語? Maybe it means “go sightseeing”, or “being a tourist”, or something like that? Or is it a one-off construction, make up of the sum of its parts, just 看 + 位? Or perhaps it's a totally different verb I don't know about.

#) “m3(sandhied-tone)-ka1(sandhied-tone)-”

“u-e, i-e kiaN2 m-ka i-e peng-iu ka-liau si tue CI-le ho e lO liau”

“Some of them, their children <together with?> their friends are all already following this good path”

My father says this expression is quite common in Penang. It puzzles me, because “ka” (= “with”) would already be sufficient to convey the meaning, and also “m” is often a particle for negation.

Is anyone familiar with this phrase? What are the characters for it? Perhaps the difference between “i m-ka i-e peng-iu” vs “i ka i-e peng-iu” is very much the same as the difference in English between “he together with his friends” vs “he with his friends”?

#) “pang1-cO7”: 幫助

Douglas and Barclay give “pang1”, and the phrase is known to me, but what puzzles me is that I (and my parents) pronounce it “pang1(sandhied-tone)-cO7”. If the citation tone is tone-1, and this is a fixed phrase, then surely it should be “pang7(sandhied-tone)-cO7” (which doesn’t sound right to me).

#) “sek4-pan5”: 釋 ? 甁 ?

“ti Penang u ci le am - sek-pan e am, si kio co Mahindarama am”

= “In Penang there is a temple - a <sek-pan> temple, called the Mahindrama Temple”

What does “sek-pan” mean? What are the characters? Perhaps it is a particular sect of Buddhism?

#) “sim1-pu7”: <X>?婦

I know this word for “daughter-in-law”, but what is the character for the first syllable? Or could it possibly be an assimilated form of “sin-pu” 新婦 ?

#) “sin2/3-sim1” and “huat-ceng”

“thau ci-le si hO i sin-sim tui hut huat-ceng”

= “the first thing is to let them/their <sin-sim> develop a <still heart towards the Buddha?>”

Here the speaker is talking about a number of things one can encourage one’s parents to do, to help them become good Buddhists. The “them” in the translation is one’s parents, and “thau ci-le” is the first of a list of things the speaker is suggesting.

I think “huat-ceng” is 發靜, but I’d certainly like some confirmation on that. I’ve no idea what “sin-sim” would be. My mother didn’t know either, and suggested that it might be a mispronunciation of “seng-sim”.

#) “ti2/3-ui3/7”

“te si na-si kong lang2 e pE-bo bo ti-ui, in-ui i bo thiaN-tioh hut-li, lang2 hO i CI-le lok-im-tai, lai thiaN keng”

= “the fourth thing is if say our parents don’t <ti-ui>, because they haven’t heard (or don’t listen to) Buddhist teachings, we [can] give them this tape, to listen to scriptures”

I have no idea what “ti-ui” might mean. A wild guess is 在位 = “at (this) place”, i.e. “bo ti-iu” = “not present”, but it doesn’t fit very well. My guess is that it’s a verb or adjective which I’m completely unaware of.

#) “sien1 e giap8”: 仙?的業 “godly/spiritual karma”?

The speaker contrasts this to “ok4-giap8” 惡業, which I have found out means “bad karma”. So, from the context, it clearly means “good karma”, but is “sien1” 仙?

#) The following words are very familiar to me - I just need the characters for some of the syllables.

“chin1-ciaN5”: 親<X>? “relatives”

“k(h)an1-khO2”: <X>?苦 “difficult”

“ma2-cai3”: 明子<X> or 明仔<X>? “tomorrow”

“sai2-chia1”: <X>?車 “to drive a car”

“sam2/sam3-phue3”: <糝>? 配 “dishes which go with rice”. Apparently, this is called “mi2/3-phe3” in Amoy Hokkien - I didn’t know this term, but my mother told me about it. I’d like to know the characters for both “sam-” and “mi-”.

“sin1-k(h)u1”: 身<X>? “(human) body”

#) “hui1/5/7-hiong3/7”

“lang2 ai hui-hiong hO pa-le ciong-seng”

= “we should <hui-hiong> to/for other living creatures”

No idea what this means, or how it is written.

#) “ca1-bO2-kan2”: <X>?-婦囝 “slave-girl”.

How is the first syllable written? Is the middle character correct? I’d always thought that the “ca1-bO2” in “ca1-bO2-kan2” was the same as the “ca1-bO2” in “girl” (which I believe is written查某). However, perhaps it’s written ca-婦囝 to distinguish it from “ca-bO-kiaN” 查某囝= “daughter”.

#) “su1-iau3”: 需要?

“lang2-e chin-ciaN u than, bo than? liau hut kong: khuaN i chut-si to-loh. na-si i chut-si ti thiN-teng, i bo than, i pun bo su-iau. i na-si chut-si co lang5, pun be than, si co k(h)im-siu pun be than. loh-khi te-gek, pun be pang-cO i liau.”

= “Do our (dead) relatives receive it, or not? Then the Buddha said: it depends on where they are (re-)born. If they are (re-)born in Heaven, they won’t receive it - they don’t <need> it either. If they are born as humans, then they also won’t receive it either, (or) if they are (reborn as) animals, then they also won’t receive it. If they have descended into Hell, then we can’t help them any more.”

Here someone is asking the Buddha whether the offerings they make for their dead relatives reach the relatives - i.e. whether the relatives receive/obtain these offerings. The Buddha explains the 4 cases where they won’t receive them – heaven, hell, humans and animals. (In a later part - see below - the Buddha explains that if they are re-born as ghosts, then they CAN receive the offerings.)

The slightly unusual thing in this passage is that the speaker says “su1(sandhi-tone)-iau3”, rather than the expected “su7(sandi-tone)-iau3”, given the citation-tone “su1” for 需.

I’d just like to check that my assignment of characters *and* the translation as “need” is correct - because of the slight doubt caused by the difference in tone, and the fact that I’m unfamiliar with this 詞語.

#) “tua1/5/7-kin3” or “tua3/7 kin3/7”

“sO-i kui ai tua kin lang5. u-si lang2 khuaN-tioh. u-e lang e khuaN-tioh kui, u-e lang e bang-tioh kui, u-e lang ti chu lai-bin, u thiaN-tioh siaN, na-ka lang5 khui mui, kham mui, khui hue, kham hue - CI-le toh-si kong i ai hO lu cai la. in-ui i tua kin lang2, i he-bang kong lang2 co kong-tek hO i, liau i e kha bo an-nE khan-khO la”

= “So ghosts like to <tua kin> us”. Sometimes we see them. Some people can see ghosts, some people can dream of them, some people (when they’re) inside their homes, they hear sounds, like someone opening a door, shutting a door, turning on a light, turning off a light - these are things where they want to let you know (that they are present). Because they <tua kin> us, they hope that we will do meritorious things for them, so that they can have less suffering.”

This is the part where the speaker is trying to explain that (unlike the earlier 4 categories), if the departed relatives are re-born as ghosts, then they WILL be able to receive our offerings.

My question is: is this “tua kin” just simply住 + 近, or a totally different verb which I am unaware of.

Assigning this to 住近 makes sense:

= “So ghosts like to <live/hang-around/are near> us”. Sometimes people can see them. Some people can see ghosts, some people can dream of them, some people (when they’re) inside their homes, they hear sounds, like someone opening a door, shutting a door, turning on a light, turning off a light – these are things where they want to let you know (that they are present). Because they <live/hang-around/are near> us, they hope that we will do meritorious things for them, so that they can have less suffering.”

I’d just like to check, to be sure.

SimL SG

One more small question.

In two spots, the speaker says "kau1-tai7" 交代/帶. Both Douglas and Barclay give the meaning as "to hand or deliver over / to hand over to, to entrust". Both my parents also confirm that that is how they use "kau1-tai7". But in both cases, the speaker seems to use it to mean "inform" rather than "entrust":

"i-lang kau-tai i-e mah kong i kue-sin liau" = "they informed his mother that he had passed away"

and

"kau-tai i kong lu ma-cai lu be co kong-tek hO i" = "inform him that you are going to perform a meritorious service for him tomorrow"

Is this a known usage of "kau1-tai7"?

(This is my first attempt not to use so much spacing in my postings - hope it looks ok.)

SimL SG

Hah, the spacing worked!

BTW, I can understand how the meaning might shift: "hand over", "entrust" something to someone => "hand over or entrust" INFORMATION to someone => "tell" someone.

Bangulzai SG

regarding 袈裟 = robes, kE1-sE1 or kE1-sa1 should be the usual ChiangChiu-type pronunciation while ka1-se1 or ka1-sa1 is borrowed from Amoy / ChuanChiu varieties

regarding khuaN3-ui7, from my Singapore Hokkien based on Amoy / ChuanChiu varieties, means "look at paintings" 看画, but i know for ChiangChiu varieties 画 can at most only manifest as ua7 or uE7 or uai7. therefore the only other bizarre guess from me would be 看胃, meaning "seek a doctor on gastric ailments", like normally how we say [扌+罪]老君看喙齿 che7-lo2-kun1-khuaN3-chui3-khi2 = seek doctor (=dentist) check on teeth (problems). at the moment, I have not known of any fixed phrase combination and i am not comfortable with 看位

regarding m3(sandhied tone)-ka1(sandhied tone), I do not use this, but my Hokkien dictionary has an entry 伓甲 m7-kah4 for the ChiangChiu variety meaning "therefore" which doesn't match your given sentence

regarding 帮助 or 幫助 pang1-cO7, i would agree with Douglas and Barclay and disagree with you. in 五度音阶标音, my pronunciation is pang(22)-cO(22)

regarding sek4-pan5, could it be 锡兰/錫蘭 sek4-lan5 (sik4-lan5 in Amoy variety) as Mahindarama Temple is a Sinhalese Buddhist Shrine, therefore 锡兰的庵 = Ceylon Shrine / Sri Lankan Shrine

regarding sim1-pu7, your choice of 新 is correct. it is in the assimilated form in this phrase

regarding sin3-sim1, it is 信心 = confidence / faith. if according to your mother's seng5-sim1, it would be 诚心 = devout / sincerity. therefore thau5 cit8-le5 si7 hO7 i1 sin3-sim1 tui3 <XXX?> could be 頭蜀個是與伊信心對<XXX?> = the first thing is to let their confidence/faith towards <XXX?>

regarding <XXX?>, i have 2 opinions. hut8 is clearly 佛 "Buddha", but I can try splitting up <XXX?> as #1) <X - XX> or #2) <XX - X + (missing word)>.
for #1) i have no idea how to deal with huat-ceng and i am also not comfortable with 发静 / 發靜
for #2) my speculation is hut8-huat4 ceng1 + (kE1) <佛法 - 增 + (加)>, which result in the sentence as 頭蜀個是與伊信心對佛法增加 = the first thing is to let their confidence/faith towards the Dharma increase

regarding ti2/3-ui3/7, the nearest match would be 智慧 ti3-hui7 = wisdom (in Buddhist terminology, it refers to the knowledge of path to awakening), therefore bo5-ti3-hui7 无智慧 / 無智慧 = no wisdom (in the religious sense)

regarding sien7, the character is 善 = good, therefore 善业 / 善業 sien7-giap8 = good deeds / good actions / good karma. 善 and 恶 / 惡 are direct opposites

regarding chin1-ciaN5, the phrase is 亲情 = relatives. 亲成 is also acceptable, but i prefer 亲情

regarding k(h)an1-khO2, i have saw duaaagiii pointed out 艰苦 / 艱苦 = difficult, which is correct, therefore i did not elaborate on that earlier on

regarding ma2-cai3, the phrase is 明仔载 / 明仔載 = tomorrow

regarding sai2-chia1, the phrase is 使车 / 使車 = to drive a car

regarding sam2-phue3 and mih8-phe3, they are 糁配 / 糝配 and 物配, = dishes which go with rice

regarding sin1-k(h)u1, the phrase is 身躯 / 身軀 = body

regarding hui1/5/7-hiong3/7, it's the Buddhist term 廻向 / 迴向 / 回向 hue5-hiong3 (in Amoy variety), hue5-hiang3 (in ChiangChiu variety) = transference of merit. The practice of transference of merit is a natural and logical development of a fundamental principle of the Path of the Bodhisattva: one uses the benefits that karmically accrue to oneself to benefit others. Transfer of merit means transferring one's own merit to others so that they may benefit from it.

regarding ca1-bO2-kan2, i will discuss ca1-bO2 and kan2 with kiaN2 separately
1) no matter where, ca1-bO2 is usually written as 查某 though the characters may not be the real characters. the possibility of bO2 being 妇 / 婦 is ruled-out because in 闽南, initial consonant b in Modern Hokkien is usually descended from the historical m which underwent denasalisation (with minimal exception). plus bO2 is 阴上-tone word, whereas 妇 / 婦 is historically a 阳上-tone word, in which Modern Hokkien has all 阳上-tone words already merged into 阳去 words. therefore, the possibility of bO2's etymology to be 母 is much greater to me
2) etymological-wise, both kan2 and kiaN2 are 囝. but to prevent confusion between ca1-bO2-kiaN2 = "girl" with ca1-bO2-kan2 = "maid / domestic helper (female)", kiaN2 retains 囝 while kan2 has to give up and takes on another separate character [女 + 間]

regarding su1-iau3, everything you said is correct

regarding tua1/5/7-kin3 or tua3/7-kin3/7, everything you said makes total sense. without your prior explanation, I wouldn't have even guessed so. thank you very much

regarding kau1-tai7, what you have analysed are all accurate.

SimL SG

Bangulzai,

Again, my heartfelt thanks! I can't respond much to these at the moment, but you have certainly given me a lot of wonderful information which I couldn't have got in any other way.

Bangulzai SG

Pleased to help you. Take care.

SimL SG

Hi Bangulzai,

I updated my transcription and translation documents with all the great information you gave me.

Here is some feedback. Please don't worry that the replies are getting longer and longer... there really aren't very many more questions.

>> I am not comfortable with 看位

I understand. I didn’t like it much either, but it fits better than the other possibilities. I suppose I should have given you a bit more context. Your suggested translation of “going to see the doctor about gastric ailments” was a very good one, but you’ll see that it unfortunately doesn’t fit the rest of the passage (the speaker seems to be on a holiday visit or something).

“tong-kim cin-nia ce gin-a ciah peh-hun, luan-luan-lai. bo juah ku nia, wa ti Ipoh, khi khuaN-ui; khi ci le suaN-tong, khi khuaN ci le suaN-tong - khuaN-tioh kui-e gin-a ho-peng - si, gO e gin-a la - se-se han nia, cha-put-to cap-it hue an-nE khuaN nia: nO e soh-hun. i toh-si an-nE khuaN la - cap hue, cap-it hue, i start soh-hun thau-seng la, soh-hun liau, ban-ban i toh soh peh-hun liau lo.”

= “Nowadays many children take heroin, [or] misbehave. Not long [ago], I was in Ipoh, [I] went to <khuaN-ui>; [I] went to a cave, went to look at a cave - [and] I saw some children there - four or five children - still very young, only about eleven years old [or] thereabouts: two [of them were] smoking. So it’s like this [you see] - [when they are] ten years old, eleven years old, they start smoking first, [then] after smoking, slowly they [end up] taking heroin.”

Notes:

1. I and my parents use “luan7-luan7 lai5” to just mean “sloppily”, haphazard, untidy”, but that doesn’t really fit the context, so I’ve translated it as “misbehave”. My reasoning is “being sloppy, untidy” => “not living up to one’s parents’ expectations” => “misbehaving” (as a young person). I’m not particularly happy with it, but it’s the best I can do. What is your opinion on this?

2. “ho-peng” is a typically PgHk way of saying “hi(t)-peng” (= “there”).

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>> “pang1-cO7”: 幫助 “to help”

Interesting to know that you have the tone sandhi on the first syllable as expected from what Douglas and Barclay list. One explanation for the speaker’s pronunciation is that this is a question of regional variation of not making two syllables into a compound, rather than a mispronunciation. For example, the speaker consistently pronounces 應該 “should, ought to” as “eng1 kai1” (two separate citation tones) rather than as a compound “eng1-kai1” = “eng7(sandhi-tone)-kai1”. I found this odd, because in this case, my parents and I all use the latter form. Another explanation is that the ‘double citation / separate’ forms of “pang1 cO7” and “eng1 kai1” are influenced by the Mandarin pronunciations of the respective words, which have tone-1 in the first syllable in both cases, and Mandarin doesn’t have this Hokkien tone-sandhi rule. I find this second explanation odd, because both 幫助 and 應該 are normal everyday words, not specialized vocabularly which might be influenced in pronunciation by Mandarin (as has been the case in many of examples you’ve pointed out to me). However, this may be a good explanation for the speaker’s pronunciation of 需要 as “su1 iau3” rather than “su1-iau3”.

I double-checked with my parents, and they said that “pang-cO” wasn’t very well known in Penang anyway. It was more common to say “pang3-chiu2” for “help”, and (for the people not educated in Chinese characters), they might think that this is 放手 (if they think about which characters are meant at all). I’d guess it’s actually幫手.

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>> sek4-pan5, could it be 锡兰/錫蘭 sek4-lan5

Brilliant! This is exactly the same situation as with “kin1-pun2” 根本, which you corrected from my original “cin-pun”. I listened to the recording again, and (playing very loud) it is indeed “sek-lan”. It's amazing how much you know about Buddhism!

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>> regarding sim1-pu7, your choice of 新 is correct. it is in

>> the assimilated form in this phrase

Hmmm... I must have asked this because I vaguely recalled seeing it somewhere in the past. Douglas has a very different idea. He claims (p434) that this is the colloquial pronunciation of a character whose literary pronunciation is “sek4”, and which means “daughter-in-law”. Unfortunately, Barclay doesn’t list a character meaning “daughter-in-law”, either under “sim1” or “sek4”

I’m quite doubtful of Douglas’ explanation, as “sim” is non-ru-tone, and “sek” is ru-tone. This alone makes it a bit doubtful (though there are known cases), but almost never (as far as I know) where a non-ru-tone ending in a nasal alternates with a ru-tone. Furthermore, “sek4” is a lowish tone in citation form (五度音阶标音 perhaps 22 or 2 (if emphasizing the shortness of the syllable for ru-tones, sometimes only one number is used)), and as a sandhi-tone it goes to “sek8” (五度音阶标音 perhaps 55 or 5), which is a highish tone. But in “sim-pu”, the sandhi-tone of the first syllable is a lowish one - tone-3 or tone-7. In my experience, when ru-tone syllables and non-ru-tone syllables are mixed up or related or whatever, the tone contours still approximately match, which is not the case here.

On the other hand, a daughter-in-law remains a daughter-in-law long after she’s first married, so 新 is also not completely logical (though there is *some* logic in it, of course - she becomes a daughter-in-law just when she marries).

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>> 頭蜀個是與伊信心

The 信心 fits well, and I’m adopting it. I listened yet again, and it’s definitely “sin-” not “seng-”, so there is no reason to need my mother’s alternative.

The rest of the sentence certainly remains a mystery: “[A] tui [B] hut [C] huat [D] ceng [D] haN, ”

1. As you say, [B] is almost definitely 佛.

2. [E] is “haN”, a particle which the speaker uses a lot, in order to ask for (rhetorical) confirmation, or as a pause, etc. In 五度音阶标音 this would probably be haN55 or haN53. Another particle the speaker uses a lot is haN22 or haN21 (also in 五度音阶标音). This one is a sort of “grunting way” of saying “yes”, and is very common in Hokkien. Generally, I’ve left both types of “haN” out of all the questions I’ve posted on this thread and on the Minnan Forum, because they “clutter” up the sentence a lot (the speaker uses dozens of them, practically one in every sentence). I’m putting it in here to help you feel the structure of the sentence. The “haN” in this sentence is haN55.

3. The rhythm of the sentence is definitely AB CD E or A B CD E, rather than A BC D... so, the “hut-huat” proposal doesn’t fit so well. The sad thing is that the speaker actually says this AB CD three times in one segment, but it doesn’t help.

4. Also, the presence of the “haN” after the “ceng” suggests to me that there might not be a syllable left out, as in the對佛法增加 proposal.

When I have finished the bulk of the work of translating, I’ll put up my transcriptions and the mp3’s on the net, and if you have the time and feel like it, you can listen to this sentence again and see what you think.

Perhaps I should now already apologize for making you work so hard when you don’t have access to the original recordings. You’d probably have a much easier time if you could hear them, but my original intention in not posting the recording (and not posting a reference to where the recordings are on the net) was to actually try to save people the extra effort of downloading and listening to them...

At the moment, it wouldn’t make any sense to ask the people helping me to listen to the recordings, because these passages are all from a lecture which is about 52 minutes long, divided into segments of about 2-6 minutes each, and it would be a real pain for people to try and find the sentences I’m asking about. When the transcriptions and translations are fully finished, there will be time-markings in the transcription, which will make locating the relevant sentences much easier.

BTW: you give 與 for “hO7” (= “to give”), which is also what Barclay gives. Am I right in thinking that some people use the character 乎 for this? Perhaps it’s borrowed purely for the sound value?

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>> regarding ti2/3-ui3/7, the nearest match would be 智慧 ti3-hui7

I’m accepting this one completely, even though I’ve checked, and the speaker definitely says “ui” and not “hui”. With the exception of this, the tones and meaning match so well that I can’t think it could be anything else.

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>> regarding k(h)an1-khO2, i have saw duaaagiii pointed out 艰苦 / 艱苦

>> = difficult, which is correct, therefore i did not elaborate on that earlier on

Oops! I guess I missed seeing this in the original reply. Sorry!

SimL SG

Here are the latest questions. As you can see, not as many as before :-)

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#) “na-mo ben-si si jiao mo-ni-fo” and “peng-an”

“lang2 na-kong liam hut e miaN. na-kong lu liam: “na-mo ben-si si jiao mo-ni-fo”, ti-ti liam: “na-mo ben-si si jiao mo-ni-fo”. an-nE khuan lang2 khi to-loh, kha peng-an la.

= “we [can] like say chant the Buddha’s name. Like say you chant: “na-mo ben-si si jiao mo-ni-fo”, [you can] keep chanting “na-mo ben-si si jiao mo-ni-fo”. In this way, wherever we go, we will be <safer?>.”

My questions are:

1. What are the characters for “na-mo ben-si si jiao mo-ni-fo”. I guess this too is Mandarin? (I just transcribed what I thought I heard, so if some of these pinyin words are wrong, please excuse my ignorance.)

2. Does “peng-an” mean “safe” in this context? I only know it to mean “peaceful”, but somehow at the back of my mind, I think it can also mean “safe, safety”. I asked my parents, and they said it more means “safety” than “peace”. Both translations make sense in this context: “wherever we go, we will feel more at peace [inside ourselves]” makes perfect sense too, so which one is better?

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#) “jip-to” 入道; “it-to” 一/蜀道; “it-ko” 一/蜀果; and “siang koh ci(t) si” 像復一/蜀時???

The following is a passage with a lot of Buddhist terminology. I apologize in advance for the guesswork in my translation. The opening sentence (with the “kin-pun”) you’ve already helped me with.

“in-ui hut kong: lang5 na-si kong ciaN-ciaN gian-kiu hut-li, liau lu beng-pek in-ko, a beng-pek CI-le si-seng-ti, kin-pun e hut-li haN - lang2 na-si beng-pek, hut kong lang2 jip-to liau la. than-tioh it-to la. than-tioh it-to liau, siang koh ci(t) si, lang2 tiaN-tioh than-tioh it-ko la. liau lang2 na-si than-tioh it-to liau, lang2 ciong-lai, be7 kho-leng, ka-lauh loh-khi khO e to la”

= “Because, the Buddha said: if say a person truly studies Buddhist teachings, and you understand [about] karma, [and you] also understand these Four Noble Truths - [the] original [ / fundamental ] Buddhist teachings - if we understand [them, then] the Buddha says [that] we would have entered the Way - [we would] have got [to] the First Level. [And] after we have got [to] the First Level, on a similar occasion , we will definitely get [to] the Resultant Stage. And [also] if we have got [to] the First Level, [then] in the future it won’t be possible [for us] to fall into [one of the] realms of suffering”

I have quite a bit of doubt about “siang koh ci(t) si” 像復一/蜀時. Someone else who helped me by email suggested 相克之時 “instantaneously” (which might fit the meaning better), but he too hadn’t heard the original recording. However, my father says that “siang koh ci(t) si” is quite a common PgHk expression, and he translated it as “on a similar occasion”. Even if this is correct, I’m unsure of the character for “koh4”, as in “lu2 koh4-ai3 bo5?” (= “Do you still want [it]?”), “ci(t)-peng koh-u kau-i bo?” (= “Are there still [some] chairs here?”, “Are there any more chairs here?”), “i koh bo si koh a?” (= “hasn’t he died yet?”).

Notes:

I found the following explanations in Soothill, but they were hard to make into a good translation of the given passage:

“it4-ko2”: 一果 “九因一果 Nine of the 十界 ten dhotu or regions are causative, the tenth is the effect or resultant”

“it4-to7”: 一道 “one way, the one way; the way of deliverance from mortality, the Mahayana”

“jip8-to7”: 入道 “to become a monk” => I don’t think this is a suitable translation in this context. My other helper suggested “to enter the Way”.

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#) “cai7-kE1-lang5”

The speaker seems to use this to mean “people who are not monks and nuns, laypeople”. Would this be 在家人?

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SimL SG

PS: In case anyone is wondering why I don't go to the nearest Buddhist Institute or ask some people around me who are Buddhists and who speak Hokkien, the reason is that I live in the Netherlands :-).

My parents live in Australia, and that makes asking them a bit more difficult than one would expect also. In any case, they're English-educated too, so their Hokkien is quite limited. It's a lot better than my Hokkien, but still limited.

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