Reason/science vs Supernatural

last SG · 2009-12-09T19:04:45+00:00

Note that i did not give a quote, however the books of deuteronomy and Leviticus seems to be rife with these teachings. Precisely because of the new testamen...

Fortmax777 SG

I want to find out if supernatural beings exist. That's the very basis of faith. So far I have never experience it. If I cannot feel it, what kind of faith is it for me?

From a Song by Michael Card (Its a pretty nice tune if you can find it):

"To see with my heart,

To feel with my soul,

To be guided by a hand I cannot hold,

To believe in a way that I cannot see. Thats what faith must be."

To a Christian, faith (that Christ died for you) and faith alone is the only thing that can bring you through the gates of heaven - That is the fundamental basis of all Christianity.

No one can meet God's standard otherwise:

HIS law (Forget Human Perception of Law)

Lust = Adultery (Penalty: Eternal Death)

Hate = Murder (Penalty: Eternal Death)

I guess that basically disqualifies every human on earth from entering the gates of heaven.

No offence intended at anyone here just shedding some light on Christianity.

Happyinfo2 SG

1) I have tried my best to open my mind. Do you mean I need to warp my thinking that god is looking at me from some place quietly? If yes, tell me so, then I try to feel god presence.

2) Yes, you are right, science is constantly answering the origin of life and we will find out one fine day. Preliminary studies: the universe is about 4 - 5 billion old. Trillion and trillions of chemical reactions took place since, and one chemical reaction successfully give birth to one living cell. As time slowly evolve, one cell become an intelligent being like us aided by natural selection. This is the origin of life. On why the universe exist, it is not very clear, although it has been forecast the universe will contract after expansion. Then it will collapse to a singular point and big band cycle continue again. This is my best ability to explain simply as possible. Hope to hear anyone helping and correcting me.

3) Care to tell me your opinion of the origin of life ? thanks.

laffin faces the HEAT squarely and will not dodge any science question.

1. I don't think you have tried at all from your posts.....it is you who said you have an open mind and I should not define it for .... you should I ? How's a mind that is filled with anti-God thoughts for open mindedness? Resons and evidence should tell you.

2. Can they even agree on the findings? And yes, they are unclear over many issues and everything boils down to this....they are speculating......and there is no way they can prove the one cell thingy nor the bang bang theory. What reasons and evidence are we talking about? Yet, your hearts is melted by those speculations?

3. Don't you already know my opinion on the origin of life? It's beyond your understanding or perhaps, your refusal to try and understand and to know more...

Despite saying that you are keen to learn and open minded etc..., you continuously post the same old crap...why not spend some time to read up the alterantive? At least in the spirit of wanting to know more and satisfy your curious litlle mind.....a little more than those crappy misrepresented facts....

I am not even asking you to beleive in God.....I am only telling you right from the start, I am providing an alternate view from TS. You said you want people to open up their minds? How ? By trusting in those misrepresented facts? Or for people to read and view both versions and come to a conclusion themselves?

It's ok not to believe in God but at least know the reasons....and if you want to come to a Christian forum to says God does not exist, at least show some proof....

laffin123 SG

"It is far better to understand the Universe as it really is than to pretend to
a Universe as we might wish it to be"
- Carl Sagan, astronomer, astrophysicist

Hi,

How well do you think humans know the universe?

Remember all scientific theories including big bang theory are theories. i.e. They are accepted until something shows it to be false. They are not gospel infallible truths.

Some scientists have explained that Genesis account of creation can be explained by Einstein's theory of relativity. i.e. time is not absolute so the one day in Genesis could mean a couple of million years. But again there is no way to verify this theory.

All I can say is that I believe in the God of the Bible since HE has touched my life in many ways. I know that HE is beyond our underatanding and our science is nothing compared to his knowledge!

See http://www.monergism.com/ to read more about this God

God bless you all

Hi Fortmax, thanks for replying. I can see that you are a reasonable person.

i) It is interesting to learn from you that scientist used relativity to explain Genesis. It could be a giant gravity in the past somewhere in space, that warp time and accelerate the birth of earth. This could be done in one day if the gravity is that huge. So this is a possibility of verifying Genesis' one day arguement.

ii) Also you raise another point that one day could represent a million year in the Genesis. This is another point of view. Can be acceptable for argument sake.

iii) My point (i) above also raise another controversy. Why does the author of Genesis know it is one day (with accelerated Einistein's relative theory) ?

sincerely

laffin

Dawnfirstlight SG

No offence, I am somebody who does not believe in creator. Why Christ must die for us ? In the first place, God shouldn't create us and this world. If God has really created human beings and this world, I think He has somehow lost control of what he has created.

laffin123 SG

3. Don't you already know my opinion on the origin of life? It's beyond your understanding or perhaps, your refusal to try and understand and to know more...

It's ok not to believe in God but at least know the reasons....and if you want to come to a Christian forum to says God does not exist, at least show some proof....

1) Fact: You cannot show me how to feel god. Don't say I misrepresent your god in the future. {It's ok, I understand your limitation.}

2) Yes, the science result findings are overwhelmingly plenty and sometimes they contradict each other. Okay, scientist identified the contradiction and they dig deeper to understand. We are willing to owe up to any wrong finding. Why are you dodging the contradiction of Genesis 4:17 and tell me about REASON AND EVIDENCE ?!?!!!!!!!!! I can maintain my patience with you for so long because I know you need help to see through this. {It's ok, I understand your limitation.}

3) Dodging the matter again. Be proud of you faith and tell me your stand ! {It's ok, I understand your limitation.}

I came in to this forum not to create tension, but awareness.

laffin

PS: I think I am losing stamina, and I need a break. My reply will be delayed.

laffin123 SG

That's very interesting.

Happyinfo2 SG

1) Fact: You cannot show me how to feel god. Don't say I misrepresent your god in the future. {It's ok, I understand your limitation.}

3) Dodging the matter again. Be proud of you faith and tell me your stand ! {It's ok, I understand your limitation.}

I came in to this forum not to create tension, but awareness.

laffin

PS: I think I am losing stamina, and I need a break. My reply will be delayed.

1. Fact is, your mind is closed and that's your limitation.

2. Fact is, science has no answer as yet.....and that's your limitation because your mind are closed to any alternative views...

3. Dodging what? Fact is, your closed mind is your limitation to learn more.....and refusal to face the truth.

No, you came here not to create awareness as your posts has shown (as well as timing). If you are here to create awareness, then open your minds to alternative views.....

Yes, have a break and read thru this thread.....as well as the alternative views.

Happyinfo2 SG

Hi Hal and Louis,

my personal opinion "Truth is more important than happiness".

my 2 cents

laffin

And the truth is - science has no answers..... yet. Truth is important but cannot be found using misrepresented facts.

Happyinfo2 SG

Which is why one should go to the source to learn if they are keen to find out.......if not, will just continue to wonder......and will not find an answer....

laurence82 SG

Does bible have the answers?

Oh i forgot, bible claims to have the answers.

Oh wait, it should be, people claim bible have the answers.

Fortmax777 SG

Hi laffin123,

i) It goes something like this. According to Einstein, time and space are relative unlike the Newtonian, Galilean point of view in which time and space are absolute. This ties in nicely with the outcome of the Michelson-Morley experiment which serves to confirm the constancy of the speed of light regardless of the velocity of the frame of reference.

This is nicely explained if time is relative. i.e. an observer on a spceship travelling close to the speed of light will note that a unit of time in his frame of reference will translate to a longer period of time in a stationary of reference (Google time dilation). E.G 1 sec to that guy in the spaceship could be 1000 years on a stationary frame of reference.

Now who is to say that God is at rest or moving with whatever velocity. But say supposing he is moving very close to the speed of light during the creation period then he can indeed say that 1million or billion years in our frame of reference = 1 day to him.

Please be advised that this is just trying to use our limited scientific knowledge to possibly account for the creation and is not definitive.

Remember this is man trying to fit God into his observations but that does not imply God is bounded by any physical laws. He is infinite we are not. We are subject to laws of physics which govern even the stars and planetary motion, HE is not. In fact all are subject to his commands including the laws of physics and the stars.

ii) see (i)

iii) The author of Genesis is probably what he saw in a vision of God or audience with God. Remember God intended the Holy scriptures to pint the way to man's salvation and his glory, not as a text on how everything came about. If he did we probably would not be able to understand much if anything at all consideru=ing our limited mental capacity compared to HIS.

Fortmax777 SG

Hi DawnFirstLight,

God created everything for his glory and honour. Now, before I go on let me make it clear that God is not egoistic. Its just that he simply deserves all glory and honour. Imagine a super big sparkling diamond. Everyone would give due attention to its glory and beauty right and you cannot say that the diamond is being egoistic right? I mena Its just so beautiful. Well God is something like that only in this case even the diamond, the stars, the planets and the angels themselves are giving due attention to HIS glory.

So my point is God's will is to lead to ultimate glorification for HIMSELF and that is the whole point of Biblical history. He did not create this world for us to satisfy us but HIS will. So no one can say whether God should or should not create this world.

Christ came to die for God's elect (i.e. those who accept HIM) so that we could enter HIS kingdom to serve HIS purpose. Like it or not the whole human race is going to hell because of the first sin unless we accept the death and resurrection of Christ. Now I know many will say then this is not fair but then how can we humans use our standards and perceptions to judge the Creator.

Remember, God is not elected to be in power by us or the angels or anything at all. He does not have to answer to us or anything at all but everything has to answer to him. Even if he were to condemn all and not save a single soul we still cannot fault him for if that is his will then he is right. Yet out of his grace and loving kindness, God himself in the form of Christ came to Earth to teach us, live like us and suffer one of the cruelest forms of death in history so that he can bear our punishment and save HIS elect.

Somewhere in Exodus, God says "I shall have compassion on whom I shall have compassion and I shall have mercy on whom I shall have mercy" - Not our choice, not our logic, not our decision but all HIS.

If a human judge were to say that openly in court he would probably be questioned, fired or face other consequences. It is not within his power to do as he pleases but to apply the law which has been agreed by the people via parliament.

However, in God's case he says that openly and made an open declaration in HIS word clearly indicating HE can do whatever he pleases and is not accountable to anyone but HIMSELF. His laws are not agreed on or subject to a vote from the people, democarcy does not apply in this case. If he has chosen to love you, he has chosen to love you and there is nothing you or anyone can do about that remember you don't earn HIS love it is purely by grace so if he has chosen you for his salvation all you can be is grateful for HIS graciousness.

And God certainly has not lost control. Everything is moving exactly according to his will to achieve HIS ultimate purpose which no one on Earth can understand or fathom. All we can do is sit and wait and enjoy whatever blessings HE has chosen to shower us with and for those who have accepted Christ show gratitude for HIS salvation.

Rooney9 SG

laffin

happyinfo2 is a fundamentalist in the sense of the word, no point debating with that fellow as its endless proving the existence of god. you can see the senseless comments this fellow has posted many a time. heed my word, dun waste your time dicussing such matters with these extremists. they are trapped within their own paradigm. asking them to open their mind and explore is juat a waste of effort and time. their minds are trapped, like a convict in a cell.

Dawnfirstlight SG

Hi Fortmax, no offence. Let's takes this as a religion exchange of view. I believe your God does exist because Buddha said so and there will not be so many followers if He does not exist. Many of his followers are smart guys. However, your God is a loving God, He will not create a horrible place called earth. Heaven is also not the place where I wish to go because I do not wish to live all over again and live forever ( I will definitely feel bored), not even in a nice place like heaven. Whether a person feels happy or not does not depend on the environment he lives but how his heart feels. Buddhism emphasise on taking control of our hearts and feelings. Merry Christmas to you guys!

laffin123 SG

Hi laffin123,

Please be advised that this is just trying to use our limited scientific knowledge to possibly account for the creation and is not definitive.

ii) see (i)

Fortmax77,

you are a more likable person to talk to than happyinfo2.

i) & ii) It is very insightful explanation from you. Clearly it is not known why the supernatural being wants to travel very close to the speed of light during the birth of the universe. Why is it not travel that fast now ? Is there any mention in any religious books? One more point I like to add: gravity force is needed in Einstein 's general relativity, maybe you want to consider gravity as well.

iii) You are very right that people in the past wrote something which was applicable to that time. Maybe it is written to glorify his name. But you know my intention: bible contains so many confusion points and attracts my questioning. This is a free world, I reserve my right to ask and to make conclsion. And people here said I am Out of Context or illogical even though I try my best to be open minded.

laffin

laffin123 SG

laffin

Thanks Rooney9 for the advice.

You are very right about his character. Very close mindedness. I worry for his next generation to be indoctrinated with a closed mind. I worry about the society with these type of people.

sincerely

laffin

laffin123 SG

1. Fact is, your mind is closed and that's your limitation.

2. Fact is, science has no answer as yet.....and that's your limitation because your mind are closed to any alternative views...

3. Dodging what? Fact is, your closed mind is your limitation to learn more.....and refusal to face the truth.

No, you came here not to create awareness as your posts has shown (as well as timing). If you are here to create awareness, then open your minds to alternative views.....

Yes, have a break and read thru this thread.....as well as the alternative views.

Happyinfo2

I have 3 lines for you. Hope you find them beneficial for your life journey

1) Be a sincere and truthful person and you find happiness;

2) Be open minded and you find more friends than enemies;

3) Be a curious person and keep on asking.

sincerely and the last post to you

laffin in support for REASON and EVIDENCE

laurence82 SG

Hi laffin123,

Please be advised that this is just trying to use our limited scientific knowledge to possibly account for the creation and is not definitive.

ii) see (i)

You are comparing men's limited knowledge but desire to explore the world and the universe with men's limited knowledge and assumptions of this entity called god

Therefore what you said cannot hold true

Rooney9 SG

Hi laffin123,

Please be advised that this is just trying to use our limited scientific knowledge to possibly account for the creation and is not definitive.

ii) see (i)

thats your commentary and perception, which is not reality or the truth as we know it. you can say all you like, as anyone can make any comments as they wish. its not in the mainstream as we know it.

laffin123 SG

Hi DawnFirstLight,

fortmax777,

in you reply to DawnFirstLight, you seems to overly speak up for your god, highlighting his strong points and sidelining his weak points. I am interested to find out how your god has helped you in any way ?

laffin

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