Creationist vs Evolutionist

last SG · 2004-09-27T14:43:04+00:00

Hi guys... Hmm... think this has turned from a friendly discussion into something less than pleasant to see... Guess it'll all stop right here.

sillyme SG

Adam being created from dust, as stated in the bible, simply means that he was created from elements of earth and that the body created is destructible.

Dead skin flakes form a large part of earth's dust composition.

stupidissmart SG

We both don't know exactly what happened during the early universe creation and none of the scientist know that, too. The Bible can not be wrong, if it said so, it must be happen that way. God is extreme being that we can't even understand one over billions of his capabilities. BTW, no one can say he can fully understand the Bible and able to explain everyting in it. God didn't expect anyone beside Jesus can do that as well. All we need to know is it said what it written and it is exactly what happened. If you know the detail scientific explaination of genesis, we can create another universe, right? Don't forget, we are not God.

Actually, I thought tat was wat I am trying to prove... the bible is wrong... If u feel tat the bible is not wrong, then how come the earth is not flat, the sun doesn't revolves around the earth, slavery is not practised now and they classify bats as birds ? Why do u believe tat the bible must be correct ? Muslim, taoists, buddhist all claims tat their scripture r the one tat contains truth. BUT surely only one, or neither of them r correct isn't it ? Hasn't tis shown tat the bible is not correct as it claims and it is probably lies spun out by people 2000 years ago ?

In the end, your reply just remark tat the bible say the galaxy is 6 days old, science theories and probably u too believed galaxy is billions of years old, evolution must take place in millions of years while bible claim it is a single day, both contradicts each other and u don't care nor able to answer ? I thought the whole idea is to prove tat evolution and the old earth theories contradict with the bible ?

I am sure men should be able to understand the bible, otherwise who r the idiots tat interprete them for people to follow ? Bible is written by god for human to learn, not jesus to learn isn't it ?

Now you are defying "dust" your way. My conclusion is, God created the universe, God created human in his way....it maybe thru evolution as well.

Wat do u define dust as ? Isn't dust the dust we see on the ground ? Isn't evolution contradicts bible ? U r not answering tis question isn't it ?

I thought the way god make men appears to be similar to Nu Wa make man.. they r formed from the dust from the ground... Why do u say the body is intended to be destructible ? Where does it written tat he was created from elements of earth and not just as plain dust from the ground ? I never see tat in the bible...

Dead skins r formed after millions of years from living beings. It couldn't have been form from a single day (animals r created only 1 day ago).

burntan SG

But you just can't prove that the Bible is wrong, no one can. Did bible said that the Earth is flat? Bible mention that the sun revolves around the Earth?
Why do I believe that the bible must be correct? I think it is up to individual to choose what they believe in. Too many religions make you confuse, this is what I experienced, but that doesn't prove that Bible is wrong.

In fact, I didn't said the galaxy is 6 days old (it could be), what I believe is God created and started it and it could take 6 billions years or more to form the complete galaxy. God use his way to create galaxy and human that we may not understand with our current knowledge, that doesn't prove the Bible is wrong. Like I said, if I know every details and able to explain it to you, then I am God and I can create the universe as well.

Man will understand the bible if they choose to believe in it. It is not too difficult to understand it, for example it said God created human, very simple and straight forward. Everyone should able to understand that. But you are asking "how", you need to know "how" in order to accept that, that's why you claim that you don't understand. Since bible didn't mention clearly "how", then we don't know "how" and I do believe that we are not capable to know no matter how detail God trying to describe it in the bible, I am sure you must agree it is a very complex and huge process.

sillyme SG

so detail for what? it's not a science journal. you didn't know the Bible is written many years ago? the actual details would have confused the scriber.

stupidissmart SG

But you just can't prove that the Bible is wrong, no one can. Did bible said that the Earth is flat? Bible mention that the sun revolves around the Earth?

Can.. why not ? It says a lot of events and things and therefore if they r wrong, the bible is wrong. Bible didn't say tat earth is flat, then why punish and house arrest people who claims it is round ? Sun revolves around the earth ? ISn't tat why galileo is placed under house arrest too ? U have nothing to say about bats being birds isn't it ? U have again nothing to say tat bible says slavery is right ?

Why do I believe that the bible must be correct? I think it is up to individual to choose what they believe in. Too many religions make you confuse, this is what I experienced, but that doesn't prove that Bible is wrong.

I am not saying tat too many religion make bible wrong, but bible being full of contradictions and errors is wrong by itself.

In fact, I didn't said the galaxy is 6 days old (it could be), what I believe is God created and started it and it could take 6 billions years or more to form the complete galaxy. God use his way to create galaxy and human that we may not understand with our current knowledge, that doesn't prove the Bible is wrong. Like I said, if I know every details and able to explain it to you, then I am God and I can create the universe as well.

As said before, u just push everything into the black box called "god". The bible say it is made in 6 days. They even explained explicitly wat is a day. Now u saying tat it could be made in 6 billions years but u don't know why bible writes it as 6 days ? But bible must be correct so the galaxy is created in both 6 billions years and 6 days simultaneously. Isn't tat wrong and illogical ?How can it be made in 6 days and 6 billions years at the same time ? iSn't it easy to acknowledge tat if science is right about galaxy being made in 6 or much more billions of years, the bible is wrong.

Man will understand the bible if they choose to believe in it. It is not too difficult to understand it, for example it said God created human, very simple and straight forward. Everyone should able to understand that. But you are asking "how", you need to know "how" in order to accept that, that's why you claim that you don't understand. Since bible didn't mention clearly "how", then we don't know "how" and I do believe that we are not capable to know no matter how detail God trying to describe it in the bible, I am sure you must agree it is a very complex and huge process.

It states tat god create human from dust. It is telling u HOW, not telling u who. It is simple and straightforward right ? Everyone should be able to understand tat isn't it ? Now u r totally ignoring tat statement, claiming tat the above statement is not found in the bible and push everything into the black box again. Why can't it be more believable tat the bible is just a collection of folk stories tat explain certain phenomenon ?

Chin Eng SG

you don't get it ar??? Laughing some people expect that because God is omnipotent, the hebrews should have a GPS device so that they should not be wandering 40 years in the desert. or that people 2000 years go have the same technology that we have now. It would have been nice if Joshua and Caleb had communicated using 3G phones with the other 10 spies so that communication would be better.... Laughing

some people use 2004 mentality (or the lack of) to read a book intended to pan generations, cross cultures, and translated into hundreds or thousands of languages.

sillyme SG

ai seh.. if only they had DVcam since Eden.. archive it in some data centre.. then all these confusion wouldn't have happened..

eh, SIS.. i ask you just one question.. after this, i try not to stand in your way..
My question is: Can we believe in something you don't believe in??

burntan SG

When people get arrest by claim Earth is round mean Bible said so? Who arrest them? God? There are Christians who is a rapist as well, doesn't mean that the Bible say ok for raping, right? Don't confuse by this.

At the time Bible was written, most people think that bats is birds, what's wrong with it? In which chapter Bible say that slavery is good?

But not even science can prove that the galaxy is made in how many billions years....so based on what to say the Bible is wrong? At least the Bible say it clearly it is 6 days, sharp and firm.

When Bible said that man is created from dust, then it is. Everyone can understand. I didn't say that it is not. It is you who doubt that and want people to explain to you that "how" to create from dust?

Why can't it be more believable that the bible is correct? Why choose to believe that some people from few thousands years ago smart enough and able to write something to fool most of us including some rocket scientist living in 21 century?

F Takumi SG

I am thrilled by the prospect that Jesus and Mary’s descendants live amongst us.

burntan SG

Jesus and Mary have descendant?

stupidissmart SG

Can we believe in something you don't believe in??

Can, why not ? I can't stop u anyway.

Let me ask a question. People believe in things only when they have grounds to believe it to be the truth. Why do u believe in something tat appears to go against all evidence and logics ?

Chin Eng SG

Takumi's reading too much into Da Vinci Code.... One of the hottest seller in the bookshops.

stupidissmart SG

The church does. Tis is not about the individual christians but the church. They r suppose to be led by holy spirits isn't it ? U mean the church can be as wrong as human ? Then why do u follow its policies like tilthing and prohibiting masturbation since it all can leads to it being human errors.

At the time Bible was written, most people think that bats is birds, what's wrong with it? In which chapter Bible say that slavery is good?

But isn't the bible suppose to be ageless, and it is written by god indirectly ? They have holy spirits tat continue to guide them till today isn't it ? SO now u r telling me tat certain para and phrases r outdated ? Then how do u know which part of the bible is outdated and which part r not ? Maybe the whole bible is outdated, who knows... In which chapter do the bible say slavery is good ? They tell us of laws on how to treat slaves isn't it ? They never disprove of slaves, and in fact jesus recommend hitting slaves when they do not perform as expected. In fact he mention god is a harsh master while we r his slaves. Tis certainly implied bible recommend slavery isn't it ?

But not even science can prove that the galaxy is made in how many billions years....so based on what to say the Bible is wrong? At least the Bible say it clearly it is 6 days, sharp and firm.

Ahh... so u believe the earth is young and made just 6000 years ago now ? In the end your standpoint is the same as others, tat u do not believe in an old earth and evolution just because it goes against the bible ? Sharp and firm, so wat ? It still can be wrong.

I didn't say tat it is not. I say tat according to the bible, men is from the ground and NOT from evolution. He create men DIRECTLY from non living things. He already explicitly mention HOW and WHEN. And they goes against the theories of evolution ! Why can't u get wat I am trying to say ?

Why can't it be more believable that the bible is correct? Why choose to believe that some people from few thousands years ago smart enough and able to write something to fool most of us including some rocket scientist living in 21 century?

Because most things it had said is not correct or tested. Science is certainly holds more truth because we can use these principles to make things, such as a computer or a rockets. If it is not true, it wouldn't have worked. The bible doesn't hold any truth in it ! It is not about being a science journal, it is about it being a history book tat recorded all things tat have never happened !

fandango SG

okie, we are on the verge of religion bashing again. can we take a step back.

You may treat this as a silly post but maybe someone would hold the answer to these queries.

I am wondering yesterday, when did the ancient civilization came about? If we consider Evolution, there seems to be a gap between the Lucy-ape like primates to the Egytian, Mesopotamia,Chinese, India, Mayan and Hebrew.

Some of the webpages gave birth of the civiliazation between 4000 - 6000BC.
One even suggested that the Chinese were the first to begin civilization, a good 1000 years before Egypt. I do not know how true these are, but rest assured, the site are not pro-christian, they are just purely history-themed sites.

So what happened between Lucy and the first civilization? StoneAge Man?

If those facts were true, does that mean that today's Egyptians and Chinese are more evolved than say the Caucasians? (no harm speculating right?)

Wouldn't it also be too big a coinsidence for all those StoneAge Man spread across the globe to begin their civilizations less than 1000 years apart?

Hmmm, if those facts were true, it does fall nicely with how old the world is according to the bible, between 6000 - 7000 years.

Again, i don't mind being bashed because of this post, but i would really appreciate it if someone can provide details with these queries. SIS maybe? Poopie-Head maybe?

burntan SG

Why can't the church be wrong? Even the priest can be wrong? We are only human, we can be wrong. Unless you say Jesus arrest them... This theory also apply to uni graduate can be a criminal as well, doesn't mean that we shouldn't send out children to university.

It is easier for modern people to understand what written for people in the past than write some rocket science in the past and hope that they can understand isn't it? This should be obvious enough.

Again, it is based on your assumption that the bible support slavery.

Actually I don't believe that our Earth is just 6000 years old. Like I said b4, evolution can be created and started by God. However I do open to the possibility of everything just "pop-up" in days.

The bible did say man created from dust, but it didn't say "NOT from evolution". The only "HOW" it mention is the material used, not the process. The "WHEN" it mention is just the starting, not the entire lenght of the process as well.

None of the things mention in Bible is being proven incorrect. Yes, there are people like you who trying to prove that something wrong in Bible, but over thousands of years, nobody could. Isn't that hard proof enough? Do you reliaze that up to now, you still haven't anything wrong in Bible? But you just keep on saying that it is wrong and those history mention in it never happended.

sillyme SG

You said it yourself. Whatever religion we belong to, we have grounds to believe in things we accept as truths. These grounds may be through experience, or factual events; experiences that we have gone through personally. And that is enough for us to be anchored in these truths. These reasons have been put forward time and time again but you have turned a blind eye to it.

Do we change beliefs every moment we face contradictions? Did Thomas Edison give up everytime he encounter a failure? Did the unknown stop Einstein from making his theories into laws of physics? Do you give up hope in something because it has proven difficult, or someone speaks against it? Would I give up my faith because of something that puts doubt in my mind? NO! Because the positive experiences that my Christian walk has put me through outweighs the problems the world can dish out to me. I do not live by logic alone, I am an emotional being with soul and spirit that no science can satisfy.

Thank you for reading.

Within Etermnal Hope, many topics were started to clarify doubts from a Christian point of view. You chose to state you point of view. That is fine with me, but please know when to stop. Your neverending and repeating arguments have become a nuisance. I believe many have heard your views and read it more than they want. It has made my experience in this forum unenjoyable, and I believe I speak for a few others. I do not know how this can be changed, but I wish you can post only when necessary without disturbing harmony (perhaps when you think Eternal Hope is a cult, or when we're putting people's lives in danger, or we're cheating people's money).

Chin Eng SG

Sillyme, I echo your sentiments too.....

To reiterate one of my earlier points, I do not encourage any Christians to enter into a non-Christian forums to impose your view there. Whatever exchange that needed to be done, please do it in the spirit of peace, and if your OPINIONS are not accepted, please leave. Follow the examples of the disciples of Christ, who, if not welcome in a city, shake the dust off your sandals and leave.

Any prolong and emotion arguments there will only bring shame to the good name of Christ.

burntan SG

I think Chrisitians should be open to other opinions and dare to face challenges as well. I don't like the idea of "ask those who don't agree with me to leave"

stupidissmart SG

I am wondering yesterday, when did the ancient civilization came about? If we consider Evolution, there seems to be a gap between the Lucy-ape like primates to the Egytian, Mesopotamia,Chinese, India, Mayan and Hebrew.

The answer is simple. Men do not know how to write during tat period. Therefore they cannot leave any noticable history.

If those facts were true, does that mean that today's Egyptians and Chinese are more evolved than say the Caucasians? (no harm speculating right?)

No. It just meant tat the people in china and egytian know how to write earlier than caucasians.

I will reply more later

laurence82 SG

Yup, like what SIS said, even during the gaps, primates or early humans arent so developed yet as to create a writing system.

Unlike any religious group which try to explain away everything, scientists on the other hand, try to find out what happened during this period. From nothing, we were able to discover more bones and other archaelogical evidence.

Watch more Discovery Channel, you will come to know that stuff scientists know... a lot too.

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