M777 vs. Pegasus

last SG · 2008-11-16T13:38:46+00:00

Cost,benefits and risksAll decision shall base on these factors.

lionnoisy SG

reply to sg stars

Shoot and scoot brother!!

Shoot and move randomly for few hundred meters!!

THis is SOP .If not what is better options?

Dunt send LWH?Shoot and pray? Shoot and dump the gun and run away?

In life,when u have try your best and get killed.This is fate.

At least u can shoot and scoot.Not a sitting duck!!

At least u no need wait for tonner to tow u.

Can the tonner arrive soon if u are inserted in mountain location?

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I invite u to compare M 198 (1979) and FH 88 (1988).

FH 88 is much heavier,but get APU!!FH 88 is not so far behind M 198

in rate of fires and range.

Does anyone say FH 88 is a copy cat of M 198?

lionnoisy SG

BTW what is probable errors of M 198?u can see FH 88's listed above.

lionnoisy SG

FH 88 (1988) gets layer's seat!!

"SAF FH-88, SAF Open House"

The next three photos are connected. A rather simplified three-in-a-row shots of FH-88 fast recovery for redeployment by skeleton crew. The actual setup timing to fire the first round was probably classified even though everyone know that it falls in around few minutes.

The second followup of the three images. The crew is rigging up the rope to pull the barrel back for recovery. If you are aware, the electro-hydraulic actuated "legs" are closing up at the same time.

The last of the three. The long barrel is clearly seen here as the crew are on the way to get it back. The development of this accurate gun shocked everyone when first introduced. Even though not as famous as the South African G-5, this national development enabled us not to rely on any gun supplier anymore for a very long time.

http://storm.webvis.net/album5.html

The firing mechanism is a mechanical 'trip action' type which is actuated either by pulling the lanyard or operating the firing handle at the layer's seat. Primer feeding and extraction is automatic using a 12-round magazine. A flick rammer is used with power derived from an independent power pack.The hydropneumatic recoil mechanism is of the independent-type single-recoil system.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Armour-and-Artillery/Singapore-Technologies-Kinetics-155-mm-FH-88-gun-howitzer-Singapore.html

lionnoisy SG

note the seat for layer and 6 wheels for easier mobility.

Towed gun but with SP capability--roads--16 and cross country 8 km /h!!

sgstars SG

sigh lionnoisy.

are you being stupid or are you just being yourself ? same thing ainnit ?

dont want to compare FH-88 and M198. simply put : NOT INTERESTED :)

you mentioned local protection blanket as the solution and shoot and scoot. what happens when i rebutt both ? please lah, dont make me laugh. u dont even understand protection blanket and u wanna trumpet shoot and scoot ?

must i prove it in hard pictures that you can understand ?

ok. here's a simple demonstration of why shoot and scoot dosent work especially when you are facing an enemy that has MLRS capabilities.

for starters, do read up

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/docops/fm100-12d/chap2.htm

2-21. While technically not missiles, LCRs and MLRSs appear with TBMs in this document because their size, trajectory, warheads, and battlefield targets are similar to those of SRBMs. LCRs are different from SRBMs in that they do not have onboard guidance and, thus, are unguided throughout their flight. Typical LCR systems are the Russian Luna M or free rocket over ground (FROG) series and the U.S. Honest John. MLRSs also lack onboard guidance, overcoming this shortfall by being employed in volleys of a hundred or more rockets on a single target. Typical MLRSs are the Brazilian Astros, Russian Smerch, and U.S. MLRS.

2-22. The ability of these systems to deliver high volumes of fire and a variety of warheads makes them ideal weapon systems for fire support missions. Highly mobile launchers effectively support forward artillery missions. This mobility and the rocket’s short burn time result in little warning for maneuver forces, and their short range precludes engagement by current missile defense systems. Figure 2-4 illustrates the MLRS characteristics.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/publications/cyberpioneer/weapon/2004/may04_weapon.html

Due to its many different warheads, the ASTROS multiple rocket launcher is an ideal offensive weapon system. There are four warhead variants for the ASTROS launchers: the 32-round SS-30, 16-round SS-40, 4-round SS-60 and the 4-round SS-80. The difference in the variants lie in the weight and size of the rockets they fire. The numbers used in the variants indicate the range of the rockets; for example, the SS-80 has an impressive range of 90km.

All the variants are high explosive-fragmentation warheads. Prior to an attack, they can be used to shatter enemy defences, allowing the infantry and armour to punch through. The launcher can swamp a target area with more high explosive than several batteries of conventional artillery.

ok .. so death by mines, death by chemicals or death by saturation fire ?

tell me ? how lionnoisy how ?

and dont run away.. i m still waiting for these answers ?

wtf is a double clutch landrover ?

wtf is a queene ?

wtf u still dont know the difference between a BVS10 viking and the BVS10 MKII viking and the Bronco ?

wtf are you ?

how come cannot differentiate between protection blanket ? and perimeter security ? dont know difference between local protection and battlefield scale protection ?

please dont call yourself my brother, you are a noisy stupid lion. how can i be related to you ? i m human, male and not a bigot, definitely not stupid and definitely not noisy.

how to even associate if there is no basis for commonality ?

dont slander the brotherhood of humanity with your association.

Shotgun SG

Aiyo... how fast you want the Pegasus to scoot? The APU isn't exactly that powerful lar... Arty footprints are huge these days... not possible to scoot out of range on that.

Shoot n scoot with an APU... thats really a new one!

soon its xmas SG

i dun think randomly moving for several hundred metres is a SOP. tt's just crazy...they should have a proper form up point somewhere else (hopefully) away from counter arty fire...anyway the speed the pegasus will be travelling is 12km/h over rough terrain, you will want to be escaping at a faster speed...

btw from http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htart/articles/20051102.aspx we can see that the 'APU that not only gives it a short-range self-deploy capability, with a maximum speed of 12kmh (8mph) but also powers the Pegasus's ammunition loading system to reduce the manual workload of the Pegasus' crew.'

my guess is that the APU is useful when the Pegasus is unslung in enemy territory, and needs to get into firing position ASAP without assistance from other ground vehicles. my gut feel is that using the APU as a means to escape (as opposed to redeploying after firing) is just a tad too desperate. anyone from arty would like to help clarify? :D

lionnoisy SG

sigh lionnoisy.

are you being stupid or are you just being yourself ? same thing ainnit ?

dont want to compare FH-88 and M198. simply put : NOT INTERESTED :)

must i prove it in hard pictures that you can understand ?

ok. here's a simple demonstration of why shoot and scoot dosent work especially when you are facing an enemy that has MLRS capabilities.

for starters, do read up

http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/docops/fm100-12d/chap2.htm

ok .. so death by mines, death by chemicals or death by saturation fire ?

tell me ? how lionnoisy how ?

and dont run away.. i m still waiting for these answers ?

please dont call yourself my brother, you are a noisy stupid lion. how can i be related to you ? i m human, male and not a bigot, definitely not stupid and definitely not noisy.

how to even associate if there is no basis for commonality ?

dont slander the brotherhood of humanity with your association.

wtf is a double clutch landrover ?

wtf is a queene ?

wtf u still dont know the difference between a BVS10 viking and the BVS10 MKII viking and the Bronco ?

wtf are you ?

how come cannot differentiate between protection blanket ? and perimeter security ? dont know difference between local protection and battlefield scale protection ?

cool down saying 4 letters can help.

u know due to my limited English and military knowledge,i cant answer

your difficult questions lah.But common sense and practical more

important than language.Human being advance with automation

or assisted by machines.

M 777,a 21 st century weapon for Future Combat Sys,is powerless!!

It is just operated in a very family way of its forerunner in WW2.

I must admit that M 777 is more light in weight.

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Escape from firing position,not escape from range of counter fire

i need to make it more clear.

Back to your MLRS question.I remember it started with my comparsions

that M 777 is a sitting duck before tonner arrive to tow it away.

This statement still stands.Pegasus,like FH 2000 and FH 88,

can SP for a short range to move from firing position.

Did i say it can move from range of counter fire?I did not.

In war,if u can shoot your enemy,they also can shoot u.

u are lucky if your enemy dunt equip with adequate detection and counter fire.

SP is just to move from your firing position to escape from counter fire.

It is not for moving out of range of counter fire.

How can enemy detect your firing position?

Sensors----artillery radar,their forward observer,UAV,satellite etc.

Unless u have good evidences that there is no counter fire,

u have to move from your firing position after u fire.

If your CO can give u this assurance,that will be great.

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before your tonner arrive,a sniper will give u a lot of troubles.

This wil be over done by MTRS!!

SP can help to hide or move to a better position to save your live!!

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Just like Shoot and scoot shown in your images,

this cant gurantee your life.But it do help to make u stay alive much longer

than u fire a sitting duck.

lionnoisy SG

u can compare the development of artillery in both countries.

I dare say FH 88 provide more automation but demand less man power.Pl read spec.

SG is not a light year behind Yankees in artillery!!

Year.........USA..................................Singapore..........

1942........M 114(previously known M 1)...

1982.......M 198(powerless)

1988................................FH 88 (39 calibre)flick rammer w /independent power pack

1995................................FH 2000 (52 calibre)ditto n more

2003.................................Primus armoued SPH(comparable to NLOS--Cannon)

2005...M 777(powerless)....Pegasus LWH(powered w flick rammer n more)

2008...NLOS--Cannon (under development)...........What the hell ST is doing?

http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m114_howitzer.php

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m198.htm

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Armour-and-Artillery/Singapore-Technologies-Kinetics-155-mm-FH-88-gun-howitzer-Singapore.html

*TOWED ANTI-TANK GUNS, GUNS AND HOWITZERS/Singapore/Singapore Technologies Kinetics 155 mm/52 calibre FH2000 artillery system

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=7

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m198.htm

Shotgun SG

OOps my bad. I meant to say, scoot out of the footprint, not out of range.

Besides, even if you escape the first footprint, you won't escape the second. So that APU isn't gonna do much good either.

sgstars SG

shotgun, he just dosent get it. he probably wont.

ok lionnoisy , since you prove yourself to be capable of reading english, nor understanding it.

here's it in pictures

see lionnoisy ? this is with just a simulation which has really been dumbed down for you with an opposing battery of 18 Astros

shoot and scoot does not apply to howitzers, towed or otherwise. it usually applies to SPH like the primus and the Paladin

and those assumptions made here in this table top exercise are extremely simplified and extremely favorable to the pegasus. not taking into account crew fatigue, command and communications, muddy ground etc etc.

please desist from embarassing yourself further if you know next to nuts about artillery

sgstars SG

shoot and scoot really applies when if its the same situation with a couple of SPH or MLRS tracked system.

Shotgun SG

SPH (eg Primus) shoots n scoots a lil differently, but they sure do scoot pretty quickly.

In any case, Pegasus and other towed artillery are hard to use in arty duels cos they can't really siam in time. Counter battery fire is usually tube artillery cos they react faster too. MLRS counter battery, not very common unless they've been dedicated to that task, waiting just for the counter-shot with area saturation munitions.

I'm not saying that the Pegasus is lousy compared to the M777. I think its in many aspects a better gun. However, what they USMC chooses to use is their business, and if they are interested in the Pegasus, then so be it.

Honestly, what I find annoying is when Lionnoisy's threads degenerate into a "Singapore self-stroking its own balls", comparing with other systems and claiming how superior it is to foreign systems. The Indian, Chinese and Malaysian military forums do that, I don't care. I just find it sick when we emulate them.

sgstars SG

SPH (eg Primus) shoots n scoots a lil differently, but they sure do scoot pretty quickly.

i thought US army doctrine was to use MLRS as a commander's shotgun, as counter barrage artillery and high value target/mass area target effect ?

hmm, Lionnoisy's thread usually degenerate into a My balls bigger than you balls, kinda comparison (if it can even be justifably called that)

i have no beef if it is representative of ignorance or lack of knowledge. but i really cannot stand the utter lack of balance and barely hidden bigotry of lionnoisy's content.

dont worry about it dude. its just lionnoisy. how many actively agree with him ? how many actively oppose him ?

btw, i just looked at our orbat. for our number of artillery batteries, we have a interesting number of guns being fielded. this is really interesting imo. why so many types when we have a handful of batteries and a chronic shortage of manpower ?

wont it make more sense to convert all into a 52 calibre of a sole mix, instead of having a mix of 39 and 52 cal systems, with organic mortar's of different calibres and categories in infantry and armour organic mortar platoons ? it would definitely streamline operations and cut running costs.

i understand that the pegasus fulfills a niche in our inventory. occupying the role of a light forward field howitzer in support of marine/rapid aggressive light infantry battalion level tactics.

but was the development and procurement justifiable in the circumstances where an avaliable substitute of equivalent class (m777) ? would have modifying the m777 with an APU and auto-loader been a more cost-effective means ?

what will happen to the pegasus when that niche can readily be fulfilled by a newer generation of platforms like SRAMS mounted on LSV or on Broncos (albiet with compromises but offering greater mobility and speed) ? the pegasus fills a niche, yes, but at that kinda production levels, per unit costs must be high.

personally i dont see the need for the pegasus if SRAMS can effectively substitute it in its niche. which means its a white elephant/ orphaned platform which fulfills a minor niche.

Shotgun SG

Yeah, the Commander's personal shotgun, and hence dedicated for a single counter-battery blanket. Means they won't be supporting any fire mission just in case some enemy arty springs up.

The SRAMs max engagement distance is only about 13km with ER Munitions. The pegasus can hit further than that w/ similar munitions.

Cost efficiency is one thing, impact over the active unit's readiness is another. There are other opportunity costs that don't necessarily equate to dollars and cents. For STK, since they have the knowledge and experience of designing howitzers, why not? Generate jobs also. =D

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

The Pegasus really, like the M777, is a light infantry man's personal gun, along side the GMLRS. The real idea was to allow light infantry to access its own heavy weapons without relying on SP artillery, as the SP artillery might be busy supporting the armoured fist. Also, light infantry like airbourne units do not have the option of having heavy armour because air transports can only carry so much weight. Who wants to reassemble a 30-50 tonne SP artillery piece after it lands?

sgstars SG

hmm, but firesupport from a light artillery piece like the pegasus vis a vis the dedicated organic support of a SRAMs battery , how are they different ?

i mean, as opposed to supporting a exclusive battery of 12-24 pegasus for our light infantry battalions, we could have 12 SRAMs bronco's to be dropped in together with them.

the broncos would be self propelled, able to keep up with their rapid advance, and will not become redundant if heli support becomes incapicitated.

only problem would be a trade off in range. that might be a big liability/capability gap.might be entering the enemy's firing radius

but pegasus being a forward deployed light howitzer system, might need a large protection detail. no problem if you chuck in a couple of SRAMS in a bronco. real shoot and scoot.

in any case, just curious, no idea if there's been a precedent of this before, but can artillery pieces be deployed upon the decks of our LST's ? e.g seabourne firesupport / naval gunfire ? but not really practical or ideal since we have a pretty good number of ships with oto melera cannons.

soon its xmas SG

the SRAMs were designed to replace the M113 mortar carriers that was to provide organic arty fire for the armoured battalion. basically with the SRAMs each armoured battalion can call for arty more quickly and accurately since the mortar system was built onto the rear cab and and rounds will be fed to the enemy at a faster rate as well. if i'm not wrong response time is shorter as well due to automated aiming systems.

the Primus, OTOH, is the armoured brigade's organic arty system. if i may so speculate, i feel that the GMLRS will end up becoming the division commander's shotgun :D

back to the SRAMs/Primus thingy, we can draw a parallel between the standard infantry mortar team for the Guards battalion and the Pegasus for the heliborne brigade. from a strategic POV, Pegasus, like the Guardsmen, will be deployed pretty far from home in a really short time, but in a tactical sense they will not be that close to the frontline as the mortar tubes will be.

2 cents worth :D

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

I see our SRAMs on our broncos as a form of infantry fire support. The Russians themselves have self-propelled mortars of 120mm diameter if I am not wrong to provide fire support for infantry. Mortars have severe disadvantages with regard to range and firepower when compared against a 155mm 39caliber gun, but it is excellent for close quarter support, as well as, faster reload times.

The GMLRS fills a slightly different niche in that it has longer range, more firepower and precision (actually laser guided arty rounds might be just as good). It's more or less a done deal that we are procuring it, though it is not overtly reported. They did showcase a small poster at the Defence Science Exhibition recently.

Sepecat SG

Although mortars are more inaccurate than guns, they are able to respond very quickly to calls for fire. They are also employed close to the front line & their shorter range may then not be too big a disadvantage. Mortar bombs are also highly effective & the 120 mm carries a big bang. Being organic to a battalion, they are close to the fight and will be highly valued by the infantry companies facing the enemy on the front lines facing.

History shows that accurate & heavy mortar fire can severly disrupt or break up an enemy attack or can rain extremely effective suppressive fire on an enemy position.

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