Oz waste $ to probe HMS Sydney sinking in WW 2

last SG · 2008-04-02T07:12:13+00:00

Originally posted by noisylion:there are more pressing issues to be solves than doing national day:the idea suggest of making SAF soldier fight urban warfare...

tankfanatic SG

it doesnt matter..if we start ..okaying ..the F word..some dickhead..will take it as precedence and start swearing as if there is no tomorrow...

im ok if we call him monkey, ducky or dufest...but the F word should stay out of this discussion.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

I think the Austrailan military are at the very least a lot smarter then some of our local military planners, here's why:

1) they do not intend to crash UAVs into things

2) they do not train their troops to fight urban warfare in inline skates and carry their rifles uselessly in battle by the scope handle to "run/skate for their lives"

3) they do not use 250 ton rated UAFs for 30 Megaton blast applications

and of course:

4) they do not try to launch non-STOVL aircraft from LHDs

Seriously, if these are the kind of ideas our local military "innovator" like lionnoisy is churning out, there's really no need to even consider the rest of his threads... I seriously doubt they make any sense.

In his kind of world, even if there is a single bolt or nut lose in a tank or ship, a military is totally incapable of fighting... but I suspect the only lose nuts and bolts are in his head.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Originally Posted by noisylion:

There are two navies in SG: RSN and Police coast guard.

Both of them get serious problems!!

1. RSS COURAGEOUS ACCIDENT CAUSED BY NEGLIGENT CREW

Judge lashes RSS Courageous officer

The "RSS Courageous"
NG Keng Yong v Public Prosecutor
Singapore High Court: Yong Pung How CJ: 13 August 2004
Hamidul Haq and Hui for the prosecution
Rajah & Tann for the accused, officers of "RSS Courageous"
COLLISION BETWEEN NAVY SHIP AND MERCHANT SHIP: CRIMINAL OFFENCE OF CAUSING DEATH BY NEGLIGENT ACT UNDER SECTION 304A SINGAPORE PENAL CODE: VESSELS ON RECIPROCAL COURES: WHETHER INVOLVED RISK OF COLLISION: BREACH OF RULE 14(a) COLLISION REGULATIONS: STANDARD OF CARE EXPECTED OF TRAINEE OFFICER: WHETHER CONTRIBUTORY NEGLIGENCE OF MERCHANT SHIP BROKE CHAIN OF CAUSATION
Summary
This was an appeal from the district judge’s decision convicting the Officer-of-the-Watch ("OOW") and the trainee OOW of the offence of causing death by a negligent act when their navy ship "RSS Courageous" collided with a merchant ship "ANL Indonesia" off the Horsburgh Lighthouse at Pedra Branca, resulting in the death of four crew members of the "RSS Courageous". The appellate judge at the High Court upheld the conviction, holding that (1) the vessels were approaching each other so as to involve a risk of collision under Rule 14(a) of the Collision Regulations; (2) "RSS Courageous" made a series of alterations to port in breach of the Collision Regulations; (3) the ANL Indonesia’s reaction, although negligent, did not break the chain of causation and (4) the trainee OOW had to be held to the same standard as a reasonably competent and qualified OOW.

At about 12.25 pm on 3 January 2003, the anti-submarine patrol boat "Courageous", which had previously been travelling with the general traffic flow in the eastbound lane of the Traffic Separation Scheme ("TSS") just off the Horsburgh Lighthouse at Pedra Branca, executed a "U-turn". This brought her against the flow of traffic, including the "ANL Indonesia", which was coming in the opposite direction. The Closest Point of Approach ("CPA") alarm on the radar was activated, indicating that the closest distance at which the "Courageous" would pass the "ANL Indonesia" was approximately three cables (0.3 nautical miles). Upon being informed, erroneously, by the bridge team that the "ANL Indonesia" was on the starboard side of "Courageous", the trainee OOW - who had control of the steering - ordered a series of alterations to port. The "ANL Indonesia" was in fact on the port side of the "Courageous" and the alterations brought the two vessels even closer together. The "ANL Indonesia" made two alterations to starboard by autopilot in reaction. Rule 14(a) of the Merchant Shipping (Prevention of Collisions at Sea) Regulations ("the Collision Regulations") provides that:-

"When two power-driven vessels are meeting on reciprocal or nearly reciprocal course so as to involve risk of collision each shall alter her course to starboard so that each shall pass on the port side of the other."

The combination of the two vessels’ movements resulted in a collision and the death of four crew members on board the "Courageous". The district judge convicted the OOW and the trainee OOW under section 304A, for causing death by a negligent act not amounting to culpable homicide. The two lieutenants were jointly responsible for negligently navigating the "Courageous" in an unsafe manner across the path of the "ANL Indonesia". The district judge’s findings included the following:

2. Siggie Police Coast Guard Trained in Wrong and Dangerous Manoeuvre by non-qualified person , 3 killed as result

Sea collision kills 3 in Singapore

Two Singapore Police Coast Guard officers and one illegal immigrant have died when their boats collided off Tuas, southwestern part of Singapore.

According to Channel NewsAsia reports on Saturday, the accident occurred at around 9:30 pm local time on Friday when two Police Coast Guard boats began to chase a speed boat carrying six illegal immigrants. Two officers were missing and two others slightly injured after their boat hit the vessel and both capsized.

The police conducted an intensive search and found the two officers' bodies early Saturday morning.

Siggie coast guard cant protect this coastline safely anymore.

Oh GOSH! They learn risky move from a non-qualified person!

3. read more lah

Other Siggie security flaw and accidents:

Mas Selamat

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/331868/1/.html

Still cannot catch

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Originally posted by noisylion:

National day is coming, SAF going to be activated again for this every year over and over millions of tax payer hard earned money spent...

The topic may be wrong.

I think ''SG shall prioritise her defense resouce'' is better.

2.If u were Sg lead,would u fix the few pages long current, serious ,system failures,

safety and training issues terrorist escape OR spend time and money on national day activating military?

Which one,tell me here?

This is the job of a leader---make a tough decision,NOW!

3.Tell me what naval platforms and how many units can SAF can deploy safely or can they catch escape Mas Selamat?

Mas Selamat escape from toliet?

if there is a serious safety threat to your son in NS next month,not to mention next week?

I understand from Sg media--

Sg spend time and effort on national day fly plane activate soldiers etc...

but cannot catch a terrorist leader and have many accidents.

etc....

escape terrorist leader, accidents are real AND can kill pple!

But money time energy spent on even like National Day months spent prepare only for most pple to see on TV, or some dunt even see at all!

If you lead what decision you MAKE?

Gedanken SG

but I suspect the only lose nuts and bolts are in his head.

ST, there's loose, and then there's entirely missing.

lionnoisy SG

The incidents happened in SG,be it accidient or human error or neligience,

is isolated cases.Lives were lost.Very serious matter.But touched wood.

Very few or none has happened so far.

Just like British made the wrong judgement that Japan would invade SG from south---from sea.The top brass also made mistake,hopefully not many.

2.In Oz cases,pl open your eyes and mind to read what happened during the

past 20 years in defense procurements procedures.

Systematic failures.I have said here few months ago and now

the Oz medias also repeated this judegment.

Allan Behm | March 11, 2008

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,,23352078-7583,00.html?from=public_rss

It is not just the upgrade of the army's armoured vehicles, the modernisation of the navy's frigates or the delivery of the air force's airborne early warning aircraft that face cost overruns and delay: dozens of projects are in arrears.

The problem is not the staff that make up the project teams, though staff turnover and a lack of experience and expertise impose serious constraints on performance. It is a much more systemic problem that goes right to the heart of the capability selection, development and decision-making processes within the department. Failures in these areas are costing billions in waste and delay......

3.The Staff College of SAF must put Oz cases into text books.

CM06 SG

Dude dont kid yourself.

Stuff in the SAF stays in the buried deep under piles of other files.

Just because you cant see or hear it doesnt mean they dont exist. Other countries have a habit of being more open.

lionnoisy SG

Dude dont kid yourself.

Stuff in the SAF stays in the buried deep under piles of other files.

Just because you cant see or hear it doesnt mean they dont exist. Other countries have a habit of being more open.

it is your wish that ''Other countries have a habit of being more open.''

2.To other forumers,cyber space is precious,Dunt waste our time and space repeat your posting.we caN REMEMBER WHAT U HAVE POSTED.

Gedanken SG

We can remember what you have posted too. After all, who can forget such gems as:

- inline skates for urban combat
- soldiers running away carrying their SAR21s by the handles
- ski ramps for Superbugs
- using $250k RPVs to kill $3k machine guns
- dropping M1s from C-130s

There's no time and space wasted - the hysterical hilarity of your inane ramblings is worth every minute.

Talk about wasting time and space? You, the grand champion of indiscriminate cut-and-pastes over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and bloody over again? Fuck me drunk, your hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

ST, there's loose, and then there's entirely missing.

But you must admit it is kinda fun pwning him because he actually tries to argue his point despite showing to everyone that he not only lacks the required knowledge, but also a big deal of common sense as well... which is not really surprising for him given he is far less interested in logic and more in making anything military by Singapore look good, to the point of crashing Fantail and inline skate force.

Ironically, he is making Singapore look really, really bad.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Originally posted by noisylion:

it is your wish that ''Siggie have good defence compare to other country.''

But too bad not true

2.To other forumers,cyber space is precious,Dunt waste our time and space repeat your posting.we caN REMEMBER WHAT U HAVE POSTED AND DUNT CARE COS ITS WRONG.

The incidents happened in SG,be it accidient or human error or neligience,

is NOT isolated cases.

Lives were lost.Very serious matter.

Many incidents!

Happen year after year after year!

The top brass also made many mistake, again and again!

SAF never learn lessons?

Only you blind son, never see the forrest!

2.In SG cases,pl open your eyes and mind to read what happened during the

past 20 years in defense failures and accidents despite moneys spent!.

Systematic failures.I have said here few months ago and now

the Sg medias also repeated this judegment.

3.The Safety Training Regulations of SAF put SG cases into text books, BUT STILL NO WORK!

Accidents happen again and again! Wrong trainings use! Terrorist leader escape!

Why?

Because of pple like lionnoisy believe everything is fine and dunt wan to change anything.

But Siggie defence full of systematic failures!

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

it is your wish that ''Other countries have a habit of being more open.''

2.To other forumers,cyber space is precious,Dunt waste our time and space repeat your posting.we caN REMEMBER WHAT U HAVE POSTED.

The difference is people can remember and make sense of it:

There is something seriously wrong with the SAF- anybody who served in NS before can tell you.

The difference here is you can't, choosing to call repeated incidents that happen year after year after year "isloated incidents"

Is a entire training issue that drowned a soldier that was actually wrong issued to batches (hundreds or thousands of trainees trained wrongly) an "isloated" incident?

Was an old, unworkable and outdated design millions was spent on a light tank on which the lives of their crews and the soldiers (thousands of soldiers) depended on an "isloated" incident?

Is hiring an unqualified raceboat person to teach coast guard interdiction methods (hundreds trained in wrong method) an "isolated" incident?

Is a terrorist leader managing to escape from Singapore's high security and EVADE detection and capture by the full might of Singapore's "advanced" security an "isloated" incident?

These things are possible because of the result of long standing systemic failures in Singapore's defence. Even the book Defending the Lion City pointed it out: While impressive on paper, the SAF seems to be more red tape and covering things up then warriors.

There's on isloated incident I think, and that is the general level of intelligence you display in your posts in here... I don't really think I see it commonly or it having any link with reality.

Gedanken SG

Ironically, he is making Singapore look really, really bad.

I like your analogy of his climbing up a tree wearing his underwear on his head because it's perfectly apt. he's coming up with all kinds of boneheaded ideas to suggest something a different way of doing something, but without any purpose whatsoever. The irony here is that he's so completely immersed in his wacky fantasy land that he completely fails to see the purpose behind things being done by people doing the real work.

I suppose it's amusing in a buffoonish way - he really is SGF's answer to Homer Simpson, isn't he? Well, without Homer's saving graces at least.

CM06 SG

it is your wish that ''Other countries have a habit of being more open.''

2.To other forumers,cyber space is precious,Dunt waste our time and space repeat your posting.we caN REMEMBER WHAT U HAVE POSTED.

Erm, when was the last time SAF admitted a screw up anywhere, if someone didnt die and they cannot cover up the death?

When have you ever gotten a report of Armour training related deaths?

Ever heard of the tank turning turtle when the vehicle went up too steep a hill? Ever heard of a driven tank falling into a flooded ditch so deep you cant see the vehicle? Ever heard the BX had flip sideways like a coin in the initial trials?

I mentioned only the vehicles.

Personal experience can only be heard with your ears from your commanders and never documented on paper.

Dude, just because you dont read them in reports or news paper articles for you to copy and paste doesnt mean they dont exist.

You know what's the "tempest?" You ever heard it being news reported anywhere with PEEKTURE? You got touch the thing before or see it with your own eyes?

Other "western" countries have a better open minded / public notification policy than we do. This is a fact. Now you are making me look dumb.

Try fishing for infomation about our F-16 and other aircraft losses. Those are next to impossible to have more than a fistful of infomation. We gave thailand 7 A/Bs what happened to the other 3?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

I think suffice to say, he never served in NS before or even have any sort of a proper idea how wars are fought.

I really love his attempt to sound all military by trying really hard to come up with some situtation in which a grunt needs to run for his life holding his SAR by the scope handle! And in the end he concluded that a scope handle is good in a situtation in which you need to cross open ground for 50 meters under heavy enemy fire when any grunt who has been in training can tell you that even if you had no weapon and was in PT kit and sprinting at full speed you'll most probably be dead.

And of course there is also the issue that lionnoisy simply ignored or pretended that didn't exist was that the FASTEST way to run with your rifle was to hold it close to your body and sprint, not dangle it at the end of one arm like a shopping bag via the scope handle.

Of course I love it how the way he glosses over everything of the TAR-21 that was better then the SAR-21 basic and kept on looking a the scope handle, which no grunt who used the SAR-21 even cared about in the first place.

Seriously this guy simply does not know anything!

Gedanken SG

not dangle it at the end of one arm like a shopping bag via the scope handle.

I think you're on to something here. Maybe because Loud Pussy runs after the bus on Orchard Road carrying his handbag that way, he assumes it's the best way to run.

arball SG

perhaps we should reccomend him to be a weapon-tester or smth...

Sales tag-line: "if lionnoisy can use it, anyone can!"

Gedanken SG

Close but not quite. If Noisy Pussy can use it, it's not fit for combat.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Actually I think ST might hire him as an advisor...

...so they know what NOT to do

airgrinder SG

One of the management priority is to set the priority right!

From personnel to country,with limited resources but unlimited goals,

one has to prioritze his targets.

Oz defense,currently are struck with lot of issues to be settled.

However,ample resources will be spent to probe the sinking of

in 1941 in WW 2!!

People will wanna know what happened, especially the bloodlines of the sailors involved. Guess people in Aus, US, etc this "My family fought for country" thing that can be seen frm their hollywood movies. They'll hold it dear to their heart, they'll wanna know how their grandfather/great grandfather contributed and what killed them.

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